Alright, as some of you may be aware, I am a rather passionate Talia al Ghul fan. I have always, always stood by the fact that Talia was Bruce's most intimate and genuine relationship. It wasn't flirting whilst wearing black leather, it wasn't manipulation - the original Talia and Bruce relationship was genuine, and Bruce had to fight for her. Their relationship grew and grew over the next few coming story arcs, such as No Man's Land and my personal all-time favourite Batman arc, The Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul. 
 
But this isn't about why I love Talia and Bruce, this is about my lack of understanding as to why people see Selina as his best match? I just don't understand it. She's a representation of what he hates. She's a criminal, and sure, she may have reformed, but there can't possibly be a future with her if Batman can't trust her? I just don't see how a relationship, that was built on the foundations of sexual tension rather than actual heartfelt emotions, can strive in a world like Gotham.
 
So I pose this question to you, from a completely interested stance, why do you believe Selina is perfect for Bruce?

Bump

Because they have far more in common than Bruce/Talia do.

@CitizenBane said:

Because they have far more in common than Bruce/Talia do.

Eh.Not to mention some people might dislike a relationship precisely due to that.

@entropy_aegis said:

@CitizenBane said:

Because they have far more in common than Bruce/Talia do.

Eh.Not to mention some people might dislike a relationship precisely due to that.

Some people also dislike relationships when one partner is a borderline psychotic with stalker tendencies.

@CitizenBane said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@CitizenBane said:

Because they have far more in common than Bruce/Talia do.

Eh.Not to mention some people might dislike a relationship precisely due to that.

Some people also dislike relationships when one partner is a borderline psychotic with stalker tendencies.

Only recently(and i'm certain they have'nt had a relationship since NML).I actually like Morrisons pyscho mama,she's like a girl Slade(can't go wrong with the Terminator).

for me

Beloved>>>>Meow

@RainEffect said:

She's a criminal

Talia isn't an angel either.

Because they have far more in common than Bruce/Talia do.

@RainEffect said:

She's a criminal

Talia isn't an angel either.

@RainEffect said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@RainEffect said:

She's a criminal

Talia isn't an angel either.

Agreed, but if you remember when Bruce and Talia first met and fell in love, Bruce fully trusted her enough to reveal his identity. In fact, it was one of the reasons they 'broke up', because Talia couldn't live with being responsible for Bruce constantly putting his life on the line for her.

I stand firmly by my original opinion. That Bruce Wayne, along with Peter Parker and Scott Summers, can not stick with one woman at a time, definitely no monogamy there lol.

@RainEffect said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@RainEffect said:

She's a criminal

Talia isn't an angel either.

Agreed, but if you remember when Bruce and Talia first met and fell in love, Bruce fully trusted her enough to reveal his identity. In fact, it was one of the reasons they 'broke up', because Talia couldn't live with being responsible for Bruce constantly putting his life on the line for her.

I stand firmly by my original opinion. That Bruce Wayne, along with Peter Parker and Scott Summers, can not stick with one woman at a time, definitely no monogamy there lol.

Honestly I use to be a big fan of the Batman/Catwoman relationship, but not too long ago I finally thought it over, along with his other love interest such as Talia and Vicki Vale, and came to the conclusion that no matter what, Batman and Catwoman can never truly be together and she will never be his "perfect match". The reason is because no matter how much she may possible love Bruce and no matter how much she may know him personally, she will be fully be able to understand who he is and more importantly she could never fully commit herself to dedicating her life to this duty that Bruce has placed upon himself in the never ending war on crime.
 
Like you pointed out in your post, Selina is a thief, she's obsessed with stealing well guarded and/or famous things. It's the core of her character and why she is Catwoman and is the number one thing that keeps her and Bruce from ever truly being together. She is his opposite, she enjoys stealing for the thrill, the excitement, the rush of having that priceless, one of a kind statue in her hands and being able to sell it for a large amount of money. Above all else, that's her drive. But probably the biggest reason is that she does not have that drive to fight crime, no matter how much she may love Bruce (and I have no doubt she may possible love him) she will never be able to commit herself to doing what he does, playing the world into thinking your one person and then at night dressing up like a bat (or cat in this instance) is not something I honestly could see Selina dedicating her life to doing, it's simply just not in her character to do so.
 
I know many will disagree with me on this, and everyone has a right to their own opinion and who they feel would be best suited for Bruce, but in my opinion, Catwoman will always simply be one of Batman's more flirtatious rouges...nothing more.

@RainEffect said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@RainEffect said:

@HBKTimHBK said:

@RainEffect said:

She's a criminal

Talia isn't an angel either.

Agreed, but if you remember when Bruce and Talia first met and fell in love, Bruce fully trusted her enough to reveal his identity. In fact, it was one of the reasons they 'broke up', because Talia couldn't live with being responsible for Bruce constantly putting his life on the line for her.

I stand firmly by my original opinion. That Bruce Wayne, along with Peter Parker and Scott Summers, can not stick with one woman at a time, definitely no monogamy there lol.

It's actually interesting that you referenced Scott and Peter, because they, like Bruce, have an 'original love' (MJ for Peter and Jean Grey for Scott) that everyone believes should remain constant. Maybe it is because of this that writers try and have them branch out.

Okay, if I was forced to choose a love for Bruce and I wasn't allowed to pick Talia al Ghul, I still wouldn't pick Selina. I would pick someone like Vesper Fairchild before anything else.

I would choose Vicki Vale. And if I were to enter Scott's mind and see what he thinks about love, I always thought I'd hear him say "OH EMMA I LOVE YOU...Wait..No honey, don't go Phoenix on me, please! We're just friends!" and Peter I would think I'd hear him say "Oh Mary Jane, I love her so much, but Black Cat is so hot...I miss Gwen Stacy." lol, but that's just a quick little summary lol

Honestly I use to be a big fan of the Batman/Catwoman relationship, but not too long ago I finally thought it over, along with his other love interest such as Talia and Vicki Vale, and came to the conclusion that no matter what, Batman and Catwoman can never truly be together and she will never be his "perfect match". The reason is because no matter how much she may possible love Bruce and no matter how much she may know him personally, she will be fully be able to understand who he is and more importantly she could never fully commit herself to dedicating her life to this duty that Bruce has placed upon himself in the never ending war on crime.  Like you pointed out in your post, Selina is a thief, she's obsessed with stealing well guarded and/or famous things. It's the core of her character and why she is Catwoman and is the number one thing that keeps her and Bruce from ever truly being together. She is his opposite, she enjoys stealing for the thrill, the excitement, the rush of having that priceless, one of a kind statue in her hands and being able to sell it for a large amount of money. Above all else, that's her drive. But probably the biggest reason is that she does not have that drive to fight crime, no matter how much she may love Bruce (and I have no doubt she may possible love him) she will never be able to commit herself to doing what he does, playing the world into thinking your one person and then at night dressing up like a bat (or cat in this instance) is not something I honestly could see Selina dedicating her life to doing, it's simply just not in her character to do so.  I know many will disagree with me on this, and everyone has a right to their own opinion and who they feel would be best suited for Bruce, but in my opinion, Catwoman will always simply be one of Batman's more flirtatious rouges...nothing more.

I am just comment with what I already posted before.

The History of Interaction between Batman and Catwoman.

From what it seems, there has been a mutual attraction from the very beginning since Batman #1.

Catwoman is known as the femme fatale, but she was actually depicted as having genuine romantic feelings for Batman.

She wasn't a lady that was just toying with Batman's emotions. She wasn't into killing people.

Batman #1 - Batman let Catwoman get away. Well...Robin thought so. Batman clumsily bumped into Robin when Robin was trying to catch Catwoman from escaping off their boat. Batman was attracted to her.

Batman #2 - Catwoman didn't want the Joker to poison Robin to death. She gave him the jewels to save Robin.

Batman #3 - Catwoman kisses Batman and then pushes him to get get away. Was it from a romantic attraction or was it to get away from him?

Well...the issue ended with her driving, wishing that Batman was driving and she was sitting beside him just as another boy and girl out for a ride on a moonlit night and that it would be sort of nice. This showed that Catwoman definitely had romantic feelings for Batman.

Batman #10 - Catwoman kisses Batman for saving her life after a bad guy was going to shoot her. After she kisses him, she got away. Dick even said that Bruce wanted her to escape

Batman #15 - As Elva Barr, Catwoman is in love with Bruce Wayne and actually wants to reform. Bruce Wayne takes advantage of that to try to get Catwoman to reform. Catwoman sees Bruce with another woman, and she gets suspicious. She pretends to be that same woman and talks to Bruce, and she comes to conclusion that Bruce doesn't love her and so returns to back to crime.

Batman #39 - Catwoman saved Batman from getting shot by one of her henchmen when he was lying on the floor unconscious. Catwoman wonders why she saved him and she thinks that she's confused.

Batman #47 - Catwoman kisses Batman when she's in a disguise in connection to a caper.

Batman #62 - While fleeing from Batman, Catwoman suddenly saves Batman from the wall of a condemned building which led to her knocked unconscious. This is where it's revealed that she has amnesia and that her name is Selina Kyle. Catwoman helps as a police operative.

Detective Comics #211 - Catwoman left a knife and silken cord in Batman's utlility belt, knowing that Batman would use it save his life. She had claimed that there was nothing in his utility belt. She had recommended the bad guys that she was working with to give him back his costume and utility belt. Batman knew that Catwoman actually helped him. Robin even told Batman that she's always been soft on Batman.

Detective Comics #369 - The end of the issue shows Selina reading the paper about the new Bat-Girl.

She says "She has her nerve trying to cut herself in on my man. I've known Batman a lot longer than that Jill-come-lately. If he belongs to anybody, he belongs to Catwoman." In her mind, Batman is her boyfriend. She obviously is in love with Batman and is very possessive of him.

and that continued in Batman #197 - Selina/Catwoman puts on a green costume for the first time. She competes with Batgirl for Batman's love by being a crimefighter too, making Batgirl look bad.

Batman says to Robin that Catwoman is in love with him (Batman). Robin responds that everyone has known that that except him (Batman).

She wants Batman to marry her and she even sets a trap for him and wants to get her to marry him.

Batgirl told Catwoman that she wasn't even romantically interested in Batman. Catwoman was jealous and competed with Batgirl for nothing.

Batman #256 - Bruce looks at pictures of Catwoman/Selina and Talia on a screen in Batcave, and he says "Whenever I meet a woman that I care for, she's an enemy and that's my curse"

Detective Comics #122: When Robin, briefly a captive in Catwoman's clutches, notices something:

Catwoman: Batman wasn't hurt, was he? I only meant to scare him back when I dropped that block!

Robin (with a grin): It only grazed him! You sort of like him, don't you?

Catwoman : Of course not! We're sworn enemies! Come, Hecate!

Batman #291:

Catwoman's testimony on who "killed" Batman, Catwoman claimed that she did.

Killer Moth: Impossible! She's never killed! Everybody knows that!

Captain Stingaree: And if she ever loved anyone, it was the Batman!

Ra's Al Ghul: Catwoman, there are many here who suffered greatly from the late Batman...and for whom this is an occasion of considerable joy. Speaking for them, I must take objection to your display of mourning !

Catwoman: Your honor, I overrule your objection! I'll wear what I please! I killed the Batman...but cared deeply for him....and I mourn his memory! ( pointing towards "Two-Face", Mr. Dent, shall we proceed?

I get the idea that Bob Kane actually created Catwoman to be a complicated love interest for Batman from the very beginning. It's very obvious when you read the comic book issues. She even shows an actual attraction to him by the 3rd issue. Batman showed an attraction to her in the first comic.

There some love-hate dynamic, but it's more love than hate. It's more about the fine line between love and hate. Batman wants to reform her.

It also shows that Selina/Catwoman was in love with both Batman and Bruce Wayne.

More about Catwoman in regards to Golden Age Catwoman

In Batman #3 (December 1940), Batman saved Catwoman's life, she kisses Batman,and she escapes from him

Batman says: "Well, Cat. I'm sorry, but I guess you got to go to the police too."

The Cat says: "It doesn't matter! You saved my life! I'd like to thank you for that! Like this! "

Cat kisses Batman. Suddenly with a swift surprising movement, the Cat shoves the Batman back, whisks out of the house and slams the door.

The last page of Batman #3 ends with

Cat driving alone in her car, The Cat says: "I sort of wish the Batman were driving the car and I was sitting beside him and we were just another boy and girl out for a ride on a moonlight night. That would be sort of nice."

In that issue, it's first shown that Cat is actually romantically attracted to Batman. The earlier scenes showed that the kiss may have been a diversion and not out of feelings for Batman. The last part of the comic shows talking about Batman in a romantic type way which reveals that she has romantic feelings for Batman.

Moe in regards to the Silver Age Catwoman:

Batman #197 (December 1967)

The comic where Catwoman becomes a crimefighter to compete with Batgirl for Batman's love. She made look Batgirl look bad as crimefighter, and it discouraged Batgirl to stop for a little bit.

Catwoman says: "Made up your mind yet, Batman? When are you going to ask me to join you in crook-catching --- and in wedlock?"

Batman says: "I'm quite satisfied with the way things are right now, Catwoman."

Catwoman thinking: "How do you like that! He's aloof --- and I'm in love! Here I go and eliminate Batgirl --- and all he can say is --- he's satisfied! Well, he may be satisfied --- but I'm not! Oooh! That man makes me so mad --- I feel like going back to cat crimes again! But I'll give him one more chance! Since I'm a woman in love --- I'd rather be with the man I love! If he won't make the first move --- I've got to stop being coy --- I'll ask Batman to marry me! If he refuses --- ahh, he won't refuse, not when confronted with the choice I'm going to give him!"

It's obvious the writers wrote Catwoman is in love with Batman, and that any flirting,teasing,and trying to get him on her side was actually in connection to her genuine feelings for Batman and not just some mind games with her not having feelings for him at all.

Now more about the Modern Catwoman that started at

Batman #404 (February 1987): "Batman: Year One, Ch. 1: Who Am I, How I Come To Be"

Selina Kyle was actually inspired by Batman to become Catwoman.

according to Batman #503

Catwoman was the first person to realize during the Knightfall saga that Jean Paul Batman wasn't Bruce Batman. She even said that heat pheromones was evidence that he wasn't the real Batman;she said that Batman wreaks of Biochemical attractants and told Jean Paul that he's almost sterile. She straight up called him out and told him that he's not the real Batman without any doubt. She read the guy like an open book and knew that it wasn't him because the chemistry between her and John Paul Batman was absent unlike it was with her and Bruce Wayne Batman. She didn't even know Bruce Wayne's identity at the time. If Catwoman/Selina Kyle was only sexually attracted to Batman, then she would have been sexually attracted to Jean Paul, but she wasn't. Her attraction was really to Bruce behind the Batman costume. The man in the Batman costume made such a huge difference to her that she could the 2 men apart by the level of attraction to them. That seems that she always felt a strong connection that went beyond Bruce Wayne's costume.

The Hush saga

Batman revealed her secret identity to Catwoman. Selina and Bruce were at date opera,and they seem natural with each other. Catwoman tried to stop Batman from killing the Joker because she didn't want him to destroy himself. She really cared about Batman destroying himself, knowing that he can't toe the line between light and dark like she can. What attracted her to Batman was his being a crusader who fought for what he believed in. She respected him for that. She wouldn't want him to change. Batman has a dark side that he has to keep in check. How can you not after being traumatized from seeing his parents murdered. With Batman, there is a fine line between justice and revenge. Batman needs detachment to do his job. He can't afford to get all emotional because that would make him weak. I am not talking weak in the sense of he will get his butt whipped. I am talking about weak in regards to that his psyche could be overwhelmed in darkness. If he starts killing, then he will end up being the very same thing that he's fighting against.

She even tried to stop him after being shot, and he knocked her out hitting her in the bullet wounded shoulder from her being shot by Harley Quinn. He voiced his fears that Joker may end up killing her someday and he didn't want that to happen, and he wanted to kill Joker but Commissioner Gordon brought Batman to his senses.

After the Hush saga,

Catwoman volume 3 #32 "It Only Takes A Night"

Selina wanted her and Bruce to go out on a real date and forget about the masks. They looked like a typical romantic couple on a date.. She even invited him over for a nightcap and they cozied up with each other on the couch. It ended with her being covered in only a blanket when she was lying on the couch.

Throughout the volume 3 Catwoman series, she addressed Batman-dressed, Bruce when in private. She didn't see Batman. She saw Bruce Wayne. Even her internal dialogue showed that she thought "Bruce" and not Batman when Bruce was in costume.

Detective Comics #845 (August 2008): "The Riddle Unanswered"

After the prison planet thing, Selina told Bruce about she heard about his blossoming romances with Jezebel Jet and Zatanna. She came off like she was both hurt and jealous. During her talk with Bruce in the Batmobile, she accused Zatanna of moving in on Bruce while she was gone. She seemed like she was a typical exgirlfriend who hadn't moved on. She definitely had romantic feelings for Bruce.

Heart of Hush saga

Selina was showing jealousy about Batman/Bruce in regards Jezebel Jet. Selina went to talk to Zatanna because she heard that Zatanna and Bruce were getting closer. She was down when she said that Bruce moved on. After Zatanna said that Selina should be happy for Bruce, Selina said that it's hard for her to be so dismissive about Bruce that brought so much emotion into her life. She was going to tell him how she felt about him, but she didn't get the chance. She ended up getting attacked and stabbed after being shocked by her attacker's the face which was Bruce's. Of course, it wasn't him.

At the end of the Heart of Hush saga, Bruce confessed to Selina that she's the only woman that held his heart and that he will love her always.

She was actually torn between two men - Bruce Wayne and Batman. It seems possible that she knew that Bruce Wayne was Batman, but she waited for him to confirm it. or she unconsciously knew from being very attracted to both men.

There is definitely a lot more.

Balent's Catwoman issue #38

Selina thought about why she couldn't stop thinking about Batman. She thought he was like no man that she ever known because the night fits him like a glove the way it suits her. She even thought that maybe he is that rare animal - the one real man that every woman meets once in a lifetime. In that same issue, Bruce admitted to Alfred to that he felt attracted to Catwoman. Alfred thought it was normal and healthy.

Balent's Catwoman issue #39

Selina dreamed about Batman. She was wondering what was wrong with her.

She said that she was getting so soft and simple that she almost regretted getting the Joker and Two-Face after Batman to divert Batman from stealing the Rutherford Catseye pendant. This was a scene right after Bruce admitted that he was attracted to her and he was disturbed by that. He told Alfred that he cannot allow himself to be attracted to criminal. Heck..Alfred didn't even see anything wrong with Bruce being attracted to Catwoman. Alfred thought it made him human. It seemed throughout the history, Alfred had a little soft spot for Catwoman too. He even told her in the Hush story line that he thought the world of her.

Balent's Catwoman #65

Joker wanted Catwoman to turn into a killing machine. He thought it was a great way to deeply hurt Batman.

Batman: "Enough with the games,Joker! This ends now!"

Catwoman: "No! Not until he tells me why! I demand an explanation!"

Batman: "It isn't worth it. Nothing he says will make sense/"

Catwoman: "He turned me into assassination magnet. A spectacle! He tricked me and tracked me, made me life hell or forty-eight hours. There must be a reason."

Joker: "But I didn't murder anyone. Don't you get it? She did! Your girlfriend. That was the whole point."

Batman: "My what?"

Joker: "Batman's girlfriend on killing rampage! Can't you see the headlines now?"

Catwoman: "You-you're crazy!"

Joker: "I take it that you are also just noticing that you're made for each other. Oh, Don't try to deny it, kiddies. Uncle Joker knows of what he speaks! First there is that animal pas de deux. Have you noticed how couples dress up like each other after awhile? But it's disgusting really. There you have it. Then come on this little silly matter of both of you living in Gotham all this time. What are you afraid of missing? The Plagues, the assylum breakouts,or the natural disaster. Please! No one's apartment is that nice!"

Batman: "The police will be here any minute"

Joker: "Ooh! Ooh! And That! The Clincher! Batsy has put me in Arkham...how many times now? And you? Not once! Either this is true love, or you have compromising pictures of him and whatshisface from Metropololis! Trust me, kitty. I know how to get under his skin. It's been my life study. And I couldn't think of anything that would tick him off more than watching you turned into a killing machine."

Batman was wrong. What Joker said made perfect sense! Joker sees that Batman and Catwoman are made for each other and that there is true love between them. It seemed like Joker made a good shrink even though he badly needs one himself. hahahahahaha!

In the Silver Age version, Joker did hurt Batman deeply by changing Catwoman back to bad through a mind machine. It's a similar to what Joker did to Catwoman in the modern age version. He attacked Batman by attacking his heart figuratively. Of course, it didn't turn out well for him. Catwoman got the last laugh. She brought him back to Arkham Asylum and tricked him into thinking that she killed Batman.

Batman goes easy on her like he always did. From what I saw throughout the modern comics, he never really arrested her. Commissioner Gordon had to lay a trap,and that was what got Catwoman captured. He even used Bruce Wayne to help. After Selina/Catwoman got sentenced for 2 years at some women's facility, Bruce didn't seem happy about that. That was Balent's Catwoman issue #79.

In the last issue of the Balent Catwoman series, #94, Catwoman/Selina wanted to explore things between Batman and her. She told Batman how she became Catwoman like how it showed in Batman Year One. She really opened herself to him. She even straight up kissed Batman on the lips after that. Batman broke away responded to her as "Selina" and not "Catwoman" which told me that he was touched but conflicted. There was like anguish on his face. She told him that he can't deny that there is something between them and she asked him if it was time that they did something about it. Batman says that they had this conversation before. Selina says that they haven't and that they flirt,fight,and chase each other over rooftops. She says that they never talk about the reason that they keep doing the dance over and over again. She even told him that maybe it's time that they did without the costumes,and Batman told her that she knows that can never happen. She told him that he doesn't expect him to give up his vigilante life style any more than he can expect her to give up her criminal lifestyle but they owe it to themselves to find out who they are away from the city. She even told Batman that she's leaving for Sao Paulo and to come with her. She said that she wasn't asking forever but a little while and that Gotham will still be there when he gets back. Then she left. Batman didn't even respond. He certainly didn't try to catch. She actually stole something and set an alarm to initiate that conversation. Batman had no intentions on arresting her. He never did except that one time he wrapped her up against a lightpost and she escaped from the cops. That was their very first meeting. After that, it was like he went easy on her.

In the conversation, Catwoman/Selina Kyle really bared herself to Batman and expressed how she felt about him. She wanted to explore the connection that they had as their true identities and not as Batman and Catwoman.

It wasn't about Catwoman/Selina being in love with Batman's costume. She was actually in love with Batman himself and the man behind Batman - Bruce. She wanted to be lovers instead of enemies. They weren't really enemies to begin with. There was a mutual attraction, and they both fought against it. Batman resisted it by telling himself that he can't afford to cross the line of good. Catwoman resisted by covering it up as like she was playing. She was known as the femme fetale. It seems that when it came to Bruce/Batman, her femme fetale persona was her denial and the cover up of her true feelings for him.

After the Balent Catwoman series was over, Batman/Bruce never turned her in after Selina Kyle and Catwoman were assumed to be dead. He even helped her to stay hidden. He even was protective of her being found out by Slam Bradley. As Bruce Wayne,he was protective about Selina Kyle. As Batman, he confronted Slam about it,and he told Slam that he didn't want her to get hurt. He found Selina, and he even offered to help her including help her see a doctor that he trusted - Leslie. Batman/Bruce was already in somewhat gray area when it came to Catwoman/Selina. In a way, he was a like a hypocrite because he helped a known criminal stay free. He did it because he saw the good in her, and he even told her. Selina even thanked him for his help. Selina also saved Batman from getting shot by hitting the would-be shooter with a brick. She definitely didn't want to see him killed or hurt.

any ways....Selina Kyle/Catwoman always had history about being attracted to Batman, and it wasn't actually just using her sexual wiles with him. It wasn't about some lust and sex. There is a lot of depth between her Selina Kyle/Catwoman and Bruce Wayne, but it's highly complicated too.

It's the long history and complexity of the interaction between the two that appeals to me.

The way I see it, Catwoman always had a moral center, and she slowly (not rapidly) evolved in the comics.

Now Catwoman is back to being a bit of the anti-heroine again compared when she was more of a heroine in the later 2000's.

The new Catwoman series is based on a younger Selina Kyle and Catwoman in her unrepentant thief/criminal stage and she is still depicted as being attracted to both Batman and Bruce Wayne.

I just believe that Selina is a person who sees shades of gray and is ambiguous.

This is what makes her highly complex which can lead to her easily being misunderstood.

Deep down, she's a good person but makes mistakes. She definitely has her flaws just like everybody else does. Definitely Batman saw that she was a good person. He even found her confusing. He even asked her how she can disregard societal laws but yet casually risk her life to save others. This was in the issue where Joker revealed why he made Catwoman a killing magnet which including him saying that Batman and Catwoman are made for each other and that there is true love between them. Catwoman's gray approach to life challenged Batman's black and white perception of the world. She wasn't evil nor was she insane. This led to him not even really attempting hard to arrest her and turn her over to the police. He even helped Selina stay hidden after she was believed to be dead. He didn't want her to be killed nor arrested. Selina even asked him why did he help her, and he responded that she is a good person deep down inside and wanted her to see that. Of course, there was a strong connection between them. There was a strong mutual attraction between them that they tried to fight. Catwoman covered it up through her flirting and teasing. Batman covered it up through his discipline and reserve and his sense of duty. It was only until Catwoman reformed that Batman allowed himself to get close to Catwoman.

Selina is a very strong,independent woman, and she doesn't want to be dependent on anybody. She's been dependent on people before, and it led to some bad things. She definitely doesn't want to be controlled by others in any way. She definitely doesn't want to answer to any man. I actually see her as feminist type that has a disregard for the patriarchy because she doesn't trust it. There is corruption among the police and the wealthy.

The period of Selina Kyle/Catwoman reformed and not a villain

Detective Comics #479 (September-October 1978): "If a Man Be Made of Clay...!"

Batman #308 (February 1979): "There'll be a Cold Time in the Old Town Tonight"

Batman #310 (April 1979): "The Ghost Who Haunted Batman"

Batman #313 (July 1979): "Two for the Money!"

Batman #314 (August 1979): "Once Beaten, Twice Sly!"

Batman #315 (September 1979): "Danger on the Wing"

Batman #317 (November 1979): "The 1,001 Clue Caper" or, "Why Did the Riddler Cross the Road?"

Batman #318 (December 1979): "My City Burns at Both Ends--It Will Not Last the Night"

Batman #319 (January 1980): "Never Give Up the Ghost"

Detective Comics #488 (February-March 1980): "The Spook's Death Sentence for Batman"

Batman #321 (March 1980): "Dreadful Birthday, Dear Joker"

Batman #322 (April 1980): "Chaos--Coming and Going!"

Batman #323 (May 1980): "Shadow of the Cat"

Batman #324 (June 1980): "The Cat Who Would Be King"

Batman #326 (August 1980): "This Way Lies Madness"

Batman #332 (February 1981): "Fallout!"

Batman #332/2 (February 1981): "Cat's Paw"

Batman #333/2 (March 1981): "Shanghaied!"

Batman #334 (April 1981): "Infinity Island!"

Batman #335 (May 1981): "Ashes to Ashes"

Brave and the Bold #176 (July 1981): "The Delta Connection"

Detective Comics #506 (September 1981): "Who Dies for the Manikin?"

Detective Comics #508 (November 1981): "Secret of the Sphinx Sinister"

Detective Comics #509 (December 1981): "Nine Lives Has the Cat"

Batman #345/2 (March 1982): "Terror Train"

Batman #346/2 (April 1982): "In the Land of the Dead"

Batman #348/2 (June 1982): "The Man, the Bullet, the Cat, Part 1"

Batman #349/2 (July 1982): "The Man, the Bullet, the Cat, Part 2"

Batman #350/2 (August 1982): "Those Lips, Those Eyes"

Batman #351/2 (September 1982): "Gentlemen Defer Blondes"

Detective Comics #520/2 (November 1982): "The Cat and the Conover Caper"

Batman #354 (December 1982): "Showdown"

Detective Comics #521 (December 1982): "Cat Tale"

Batman #355 (January 1983): "Never Scratch A Cat"

Detective Comics #526 (May 1983): "All My Enemies Against Me"

Detective Comics #548 (March 1985): "Beasts A-Prowl"

Batman #382 (April 1985): "The Vengeance Spiral"

Batman #389 (November 1985): "Red Skies"

Detective Comics #556 (November 1985): "The Bleeding Night"

Batman #390 (December 1985): "Women Dark and Dangerous"

Detective Comics #557 (December 1985): "Still Beating"

Batman #391 (January 1986): "Death Comes As the End"

Detective Comics #558 (January 1986): "Strange Loves"

Crisis on Infinite Earths #5 (August 1985): "Worlds in Limbo"

Batman #392 (February 1986): "A Town on the Night"

Detective Comics #559 (February 1986): "It Takes Two Wings to Fly"

Detective Comics #560 (March 1986): "The Batman Nobody Knows"

Batman #395 (May 1986): "Fury of the Film Freak"

Detective Comics #562 (May 1986): "Reeling"

Batman #396 (June 1986): "Box-Office Smash"

Detective Comics #563 (June 1986): "Free Faces"

Batman #397 (July 1986): "Binary Brains"

Detective Comics #564 (July 1986): "Double Crosses"

Batman #398 (August 1986): "About Faces"

Detective Comics #565 (August 1986): "The Love Killing"

Batman #399 (September 1986): "Strike Two"

Batman #400 (October 1986): "Resurrection Night!"

Detective Comics #569 (December 1986): "Catch As Catscan"

Detective Comics #570 (January 1987): "The Last Laugh"

From February 1979 through January 1987, Catwoman was in a reformed stage.

By the end of Detective Comics #570, Catwoman was converted back to being a villian with a mind machine by the Joker.

It was just month after that, there was the big retcon with new origins of Batman and Catwoman with the Batman: Year 1 series

Batman #404 (February 1987): "Batman: Year One, Ch. 1: Who Am I, How I Come To Be"

Batman #332/2 (February 1981): "Cat's Paw"

Batman #333/2 (March 1981): "Shanghaied!"

Batman #345/2 (March 1982): "Terror Train"

Batman #346/2 (April 1982): "In the Land of the Dead"

Batman #348/2 (June 1982): "The Man, the Bullet, the Cat, Part 1"

Batman #349/2 (July 1982): "The Man, the Bullet, the Cat, Part 2"

Batman #350/2 (August 1982): "Those Lips, Those Eyes"

Batman #351/2 (September 1982): "Gentlemen Defer Blondes"

Detective Comics #520/2 (November 1982): "The Cat and the Conover Caper"

There were separate stories of Catwoman after Batman's regular stories. They focused on the heroic aspect of her.

Batman #332 (February 1981): "Fallout!"

Batman #332/2 (February 1981): "Cat's Paw"

Batman #333/2 (March 1981): "Shanghaied!"

Catwoman and Robin teamed up

Robin says: "Frankly, I didn't know who else I could turn to who could help me the same way you can. You know the Batman. You understand him. And maybe I don't. It's just...Well, I think Talia is playing him for a fool. Why can't he see through her? You know, I tried warning him, but he wouldn't listen to me. He still thinks of me as a kid. You know, the boy wonder, his teenage sidekick. nothing more. Maybe I'm not as good as he is. But I'm not half as bad as he thinks I am. I need your help."

Then it shows that he was talking to Selina.

Dick Grayson/Robin actually trusted Selina Kyle/Catwoman and not Talia.

They teamed up.

The Batman Issue part of #332 ended with Catwoman and Robin seeing Batman and Talia kissing. Catwoman sadly walked away which led to Robin scatching his head out of confusion.

The Catwoman part of Batman issue #332 ends with the following

Catwoman says: "Everything went up in flames! Kruggerand couldn't control the energy output! First Falstaff dead, now him...And I still don't understand why either of them was trying to create monsters! just as I'm not certain who they were actually working for. I was so certain it was Talia. so certain she was playing with the Batman...leading him into some dangerous trap..but now, I just don't know. I'm wondering if seeing Batman with Talia made me jealous in some stupid manner. Blast! Am I really that petty? I wish I knew...I just wish I knew. "

Then it shows Talia watching Catwoman walking away.

It wasn't just Catwoman that thought Talia was playing with Batman. Robin thought so too. Therefore, she really wasn't being petty.

I like how the comic showed Catwoman doubting herself because it showed her that she was very human. She wasn't so cocky that she felt like she knew everything. She understood that she had flaws that might interfere with her judgment.

Batman #333/2 (March 1981): "Shanghaied!"

Robin and Catwoman talking while flying in the Batplane.

Robin says: "Selina, I didn't ask you before...but you walked out when you saw Talia with Batman.

Catwoman looking away from Robin,Catwoman says: "And you want to know why. Perhaps I felt...hurt. Jealous...? I don't know. Sometimes I think I'm better off not knowing."

It gives the impression that Catwoman is jealous of seeing Talia with Batman because she knows that Talia is with Bruce. It's like she knows that Batman and Bruce are one and the same.

I really liked Catwoman and Robin working together. They seemed to like and respect each other.

Detective Comics #521 (December 1982): "Cat Tale"

Batman #355 (January 1983): "Never Scratch A Cat"

After Selina left Bruce and Gotham, she came back. She realized that she needed him and wanted to be with him.

She had major jealousy issues with Vicki Vale. She was so eaten up inside that she had nightmares of being like a monster. She told Vicki to stay away from Bruce. She ran Bruce and Vicki off the road. Catwoman and Batman had a fight, and Catwoman wanted to kill him. She had the upper hand, but she couldn't allow herself to kill him. For the first time, she called Batman "Bruce."

Bruce finally understood how they hurt each other (She hurt him by leaving Gotham, and he hurt her by taking up with Vicki Vale). It ended with them hugging each other.

Detective Comics #521 (December 1982): "Cat Tale"

Selina has a nightmare of being a monstrous Catwoman that attacks Vicki Vale

Selina says: "Every night...the same dream...horrible dream...! And each night, it's worse than the night before! Stalking that woman --- attacking her. ---smelling her blood on my hands. God...God...I'm going mad. I know I'm going mad. I should never have come back to Gotham. Then I wouldn't have known that Bruce had found someone else...Vicki Vale..someone else to love. But I have come back..And when I see her with him, holding him ------It sets a fury raging within me, a fury I don't think I can control! I gave up a life of crime as the Catwoman out of love for Bruce......but what life do I have without him? These past few months apart, I've learned how much I need him......and I won't give up without a fight."

I don't know why the writers made Selina to be a crazy jealous woman in those 2 issues. I guess that they wanted to play off her jealous nature like they showed her being jealous of Talia. I guess the writers wanted to show that Selina still had dark side that needed to be kept in check. At least in the end, Selina showed that she was better than that.

Later after some comic book issues, the writers had Bruce Wayne/Batman realizing that he never stopped loving Selina Kyle/Catwoman.

It really isn't out of character for Selina Kyle/Catwoman to reform and become good. She's done it in multiple age periods - the Golden Age, the Silver Age, and the Modern Age (Bronze Age?). I wouldn't be surprised if she ends up doing it in the DC 52 universe but only after a decade or 2. Before the DC 52 started, Bruce even considered worthy of her joining his crusade against crime. Seeing that she wasn't the type to kill and was attracted to Batman hinted at the possiblity that she would fall in love with Bruce Wayne/Batman, reform and become a crime fighter.

In regards to comic book history, I believe that Selina Kyle/Catwoman hasn't been an actual villain since October 1978 if you don't count the Joker converting her back to having a villain mindset with the mind machine. That was just a little bit of Detective Comics #570 (January 1987): "The Last Laugh"

I really can't see how Selina Kyle/Catwoman can be dismissed because of her being bad,villain,and other things that are supposed to make her not good enough for Bruce Wayne/Batman compared to Talia. She's too complex to be pinned down.

I don't believe that they're "right" for each other by any means, but I do think that they feel a deep connection to one another that pulls them inextricably together regardless of how wrong they may be for each other. And I find that really compelling. It shows that somewhere deep inside Bruce, there's a rebellious nature that loves Catwoman's roguish sensibilities. And somewhere deep in Selina, there's a need for order and moral guidance that gets fulfilled when she's around Batman. But neither will be willing to admit how much they love those things in the other and neither is willing to give up the aspects that they feel defines themselves to be with the other. And for that they won't be happy. Add to that the fact that for Batman, Catwoman was there from the start. For the first five years of Batman's career, his closes relationships were with Alfred, James Gordon, Harvey Dent, and Catwoman. And just as part of him will always think of Harvey Dent as his old friend, part of him will always be attached to Catwoman.

So, they're not right for each other. But that's the way Gotham works, really. Happiness is a possibility, but it's mostly a tragic and unforgiving place where people and relationships are rarely simple.

Also, I don't think that Talia is right for Bruce, either. If Catwoman, who mainly targets the wealthy and corrupt and has been known to spend a portion of her earnings on charity, isn't moral enough for Batman than a woman who earns her vast fortune from an evil multi-national criminal empire that has existed for hundreds of years probably isn't the right fit for him either.

But, ultimately, I don't think the right person exists for Batman, really. He's chosen a long and lonely path for himself as far as romance is concerned. Only when he chooses to retire will he have time for love in his life.

Well, there've been many people in Bruce's life, even for a loner, but the one and only woman who has ever touched his heart is Selina (he even says it in HoH). Talia is just a big mistake, and you can kinda tell that he sees her that way. Yes, there WAS a spark between them, but the love was never really there. They only had a child because Talia drugged Bruce really bad (wow, seriously......). Bruce and Selina have alot in common, and in other worlds, they're usually depicted as either a married couple or.... just a couple. Selina's basically the angel on Bruce's shoulder, even is she DOES make bad decisions sometimes. Talia is possesive and loves Bruce for WHAT he is: Batman. Selina loves him for WHO he is, and that's what makes her special. Anyway, Selina's pretty much the girl version of Bruce, although she knows how to enjoy life alot more than he does.

I always thought Talia was such a bitch. -_- No offense to any of the fans out there :3

@Into_The_Deep said:

Well, there've been many people in Bruce's life, even for a loner, but the one and only woman who has ever touched his heart is Selina (he even says it in HoH). Talia is just a big mistake, and you can kinda tell that he sees her that way. Yes, there WAS a spark between them, but the love was never really there. They only had a child because Talia drugged Bruce really bad (wow, seriously......). Bruce and Selina have alot in common, and in other worlds, they're usually depicted as either a married couple or.... just a couple. Selina's basically the angel on Bruce's shoulder, even is she DOES make bad decisions sometimes. Talia is possesive and loves Bruce for WHAT he is: Batman. Selina loves him for WHO he is, and that's what makes her special. Anyway, Selina's pretty much the girl version of Bruce, although she knows how to enjoy life alot more than he does.

I always thought Talia was such a bitch. -_- No offense to any of the fans out there :3

The Talia drugging Bruce instance is a mistake that Grant Morrison has publicly admitted to making. In Batman - Birth of the Demon Bruce and Talia actually intend to get married and the kid came out of consummate love. Son of the Demon is completely inaccurate, which is surprising considering that a short time later Morrison wrote Resurrection of Ra's al Ghul, where the love between Talia and Bruce is constantly referenced to.

the only one that I kind of liked with bruce was silver st cloud but she gets killed by onomatopoeia, speaking of which, where is he?

Selina is basically a free, happy Bruce.

@sinestro_GL said:

Selina is basically a free, happy Bruce.

I really don't see that, could you please elaborate

I agree with RainEffect. I prefer Talia over Catwoman, who is the most ANNOYING character ever

hey can't complain i'm more for talia too, but Bruce just sees something in selina he likes so i got no problem with it, Atleast its a better twist to having two great loves with an interesting personality unlike superman and lois (albiet she is a better character now, but she has nothing on these two)

I like her more because there's more tension in a woman that he "can't have" (or, shouldn't, anyway).

I think Selina is WAY better than Talia but hey thats just my opinion. i mean i can really see the love and chemistry between bruce and selina, they both have similarities which really let them understand eachother despite being at oppisite ends of the law. and just because selina is a criminal doesnt mean she's a bad person, she steals things yes but she's not a phycopath or a killer and has even stopped batman from trying to kill the joker. catwoman has even said she wants to help protect the innocent. i think talia will always have her father in the way of them. i dont hate talia but i just dont really like her relationship with batman like i do with catwoman. i know alot of the time when talia does something bad its because of her father but talia wouldnt mind taking someones life, while catwoman would only be tempted if the person really desrved it (like black mask after what he did to catwoman's sister) the same as batman was tempted to kill the joker in hush

@glaucus: thx for all this list of batman and catwoman

Old thread, but i'll chime in, cause I like the topic. I don't know that i'd say Catwoman is perfect for Bruce, like his "one true love' or something, but I definitely think they work together. Putting aside the fact that they're an attractive male and female respectively, they both have a natural inclination towards the shadows and the night, something that the average person doesn't understand, which has been used over the years to forge a deep bond between them. Dressing up in the costumes and all the theatrics of their line of work just makes the connection that much stronger, because its something they share that few other people (In the grand scheme) can really understand. I feel that you can also say that they're both children of the same monster, in terms of them being native to Gotham City, which within the DCU naturally seems to create a different kind of people than anywhere else in the world. Therefore, despite the fact that in classic tradition they're on opposite sides of the law, something is always drawing them towards each other.

For Bruce's part, the fact that Selina isn't like Joker, or Two Face, or many of his other villains enables him to constantly allow himself to let his guard down around her. She's dangerous to be sure, but she's not a murdering psychopath. On the average day she really just tends to stick to stealing valuables. A crime yes, but (again in the grand scheme of the DCU) a fairly minor one. Even something that she can actually go to jail for, serve her time, and be released. Then for Selina, Bruce has all the qualities she's attracted to. The previously mentioned elements of being physically fit, an affinity for the darkness, and the fact that he dresses up in a costume at night. But there's also the fact that he's a geniunely good and noble person, and i'd even say that the fact he tries so hard to resist her only makes the experience more enjoyable on her end. Call it what you will, the forbidden fruit or whatever, but i'd say it works. Heck in many instances they're both kept from being together due to what one or both won't say, the fact that neither is willing to make that extra step towards the other, which adds the necessary sense of drama and slight tragedy to the romance.

I honestly think that either relationship, Selina or Talia, can work and that both are people that Bruce could realistically end up with.

Batman and Catwoman is my favorite relationship and I personally think that it is the best relationship out of all the woman batman has had a relationship with. I really don't like batman with Talia. There is a lot of reasons why Batman x Catwoman is the best relationship out of all of them, most people already mentioned a lot of stuff so I am not going to say a lot. Variant Comics got it pretty accurate when he said Catwoman is a female, slightly happier version of batman with a slight touch of evil. I also don't like Talia's attitude a lot and in Batman arkham city they explain that quite well.

Batman finds The league of assassins secret base. The assassins see him here and draw their swords out and point them at him. Talia tells them to stop, she goes up to batman and slaps him

Talia: " How did you find us."

Batman explains how he found them and all that.

Talia: You didn't need to get yourself arrested to see me Bruce. After that night we spent in metropolis you could have just called."

Wait so you slap him for no reason then start flirting with him not cool Talia but it gets even better.

They talk, batman does a trial, then he battles Ra's ( Ra's wants batman to kill him and replace him as the head of the demon) in the middle of the fight there is a small cut scene.

Talia: " We are fated to rule this earth. To wipe it clean of the scum of humanity. Only we can do this. My father is old. His time is over. Ours is just beginning. Take his blade. Kill him. Accept your destiny. Accept our destiny."

Batman: "You know I can't do that Talia."

Talia: "Then, beloved. You will have to die."

Catwoman knows batman more than anybody else ( except for Alfred, she even knows batman more than Dick Grayson aka Nightwing) In the knight fall saga when catwoman and batman have a small talk catwoman even without knowing batman's identity at that time she immediately knew this is a different person as batman, ( It was Jean Paul Valley) she was the first person to figure it out. Batman and Catwoman are meant for each other they know one another so well. In Batman Hush, Catwoman tried to stop Batman from killing the joker because she knows he would not be able to live with himself if he does kill someone, she doesn't want Batman to destroy everything he stands for, she respects him and what he does and his rule. While Talia doesn't care about his rule and she without hesitation said you will have to die to batman even if she likes him, just because he disagreed she concludes with you will have to die like she doesn't care. Also the Batman and Talia relationship seems to forced in my opinion so yea, sorry to all Talia fans but I dislike her.

Batman x Catwoman>>>>> Batman x Talia.

@mrunknown00: The Joker also found out easily, and Jim Gordon knew that there was something off.

@black_arrow: Yes that is true however Jim Gordon took a long time to find out it was a different person as batman, he knew there was something off but he wasn't 100% sure while Catwoman immediately knew it was someone else.

@mrunknown00: Jim Gordon had a little doubt because he saw Batman beaten up and broken and he thought that may have change him in someway. But before that Batman said that Jim would know if Jean Paul Valley would present itself as Batman Jim Gordon would notice (he also has done this in the Long Road Home). Here is the scan:

Dick, Tim, Jason and Oracle (she has done this in the Past), would be capable of doing this (also many expirienced fighters that have fought against him many times, and know his moves).

I love Talia but Selina is kind of perfect for Bruce.

FIrst of all, Talia is using Batman, or at least her father is using him through her. Second of all, thievery is much preferable to taking over the world.

Third of all, Batman can't do anything with Talia because he might be playing right to Ra's al Ghul's plan, and handing him world domination. Finally, Batman needs someone who can take care of herself, which basically limits him to just Talia and Selina. And as mentioned earlier, Talia = world domination.

Plus, I absolutely love cats!

I never understood cat people, so I don't get the appeal.

He should be married to Gotham.

Wondy and batman>any other pairing imo I say they need to make it happen. But in the end no pairing will last if it involves Bruce Wayne... Because batman beyond has shown us the dark knight will always be committed and married to Gotham.

Tom King is making their relationship less about sex. I am not sure it is as deep as Talia and Batman's has been in the past though. I thought Talia's final moments dueling Batman in the batcave during Batman Inc. were quite intimate in a way

@jayc1324: Yeah and now we have to wait till what...October till Selina's answer to Bruce. lel

Because she's very similar to him, minus the whole dark personality.

She's from a society of immortal warriors and he's a rich kid, how would it work?

@all-father: lol agreed

The BatCat relationship is really hurting Batman as a character. I wish Tom King would stop pushing this relationship down our throats. Catwoman is nothing without Batman, but Batman can always go on without this toxic relationship bringing him down.

@nybreezy: King. that's rihght there the main problem.

He can't write those two together for some odd reason.

I think Selina loves Bruce for who he is and Talia loves Bruce for who he could become. In that sense Selina/Bruce is the healthier relationship because they both become better people when they're together; where as Talia tries to lead Bruce down a darker path.

@diabla91: agreed. Well, we'llhave to wait and see what Tom King's got in store for us. Will Selina say

Yes or No? Even if she says yes, what will the price be?

@cosmo111687: I do agree with many of your examples being a good argument for BatCat, but I wouldn't cite a comic (Batman #355) where she tried to kill him, but held back because she "loved" him. I do agree that BatCat do love each other, but these kind of stories where se almost killed him out of jealousy should be avoided. That's true insane lust and obsession, not love.

And as to Bruce stating in Heart of Hush storyline how she was the only woman who held his heart, that's a typical one comic writer ignoring what another writer did all so he could display Catwoman as his special one all by obilterating years of canon in "Batman and Son", making Talia a rapist which he admitted was a mistake. It also ignores the fact that Bruce also loved Shondra Kinsolving who cared for him during Knightfall.

But when Bruce returns from the past after being sent there in Final Crisis, he just leaves her after meeting her and only briefly allies with her during Batman Inc.

Batman did have genuine love for Talia al Ghul and Shondra, Morrison's claim that he only loved Catwoman is contradictory.

Talia was torn between her love for her father and Bruce, not the thrill of a heist. And Bruce was shown to love her truly in Son of the Demon. Of course Grant Morrison changed it to her drugging his drink and Talia being completely manipulative and not even really loving him.

Sure it's claimed that Catwoman "understands" Batman, but there's no reason given as to how and why. For that their relationship will need to be organic, not some thief who immediately understands Bruce or understands him with no real reason or organic bond.

Morrison had unnecessarily trashed Talia and I do think they could be perfect for each other if she became her old self again like she was in 90s and before that.

Batman may has a 7'' x 5'' ding dong, maybe this keep the relationship up for a while

Hi all, I am new here so please bear with me. I never understood the appeal or the logic behind this '' relationship'', Batman as a character cannot be with someone as Catwoman, it's an insult to the character, how can you claim to uphold the '' law' and talk about justice and honesty and fighting crime while she never ends up in jail? she is never punished for her crimes?

tbh every time she appears ( movies, comics, animated shows) she annoys me because she makes Batman/Bruce look and sounds like a stupid, horny man, it's insulting!

Also, she is useless, why is she there? eye candy?

@feminaemagna: Congrats, you don't know the first thing about her. Or Batman.

@zariusii: Oh, let me guess, you do?

Pretentious and condescending much?

This is accurate.