Goku vs Naruto, equalized stats

@never_give_up: I've been following this thread since the beginning, I just didn't have the time or energy to intervene in a meaningful manner, doesn't change the fact that I believe Goku would win this encounter.

mis match

kid goku could win easily forget about adult goku

goku is much more versatile and a fighter by birth than naruto

He can learn techniques while fighting and seeing them once and improving them in battle

he was even after to improve jackie chun afterimage while fighting him, naruto is severly outclassed here

that is why he is known as one of the best martial artist in fiction

naruto stands no chance here, the only outcome is dead naruto no matter how much you weaken goku. Anyone who says otherwise is clueless

Goku, ki control >> naruto, and kaioken is a technique not a transformation.

@houseshm: Goku can learn technique yet can't survive in space. Got it

Shadow clones, multi-tasking and strategy. Naruto wins if stats are equalized, he never dealt with a tactician like Naruto

so?Goku stomps he is a genius in the art of fighting

how does surviving in space have any correlation with learning a technique?

@thedarkpaladin:

No, Naruto has ridiculous nonsensical ass pulls for the most part (gotta love shonen), but that much is irrelevant. The source material is proof that Kaio-Ken multiplies stats.

ass pull happens to every verse, but power level? LOL

Kiao-ken has only fixed multiplier but with SM, there is no limit with the multiplier. The more senjutsu chakra he gather more power he become. Remember the Naruto vs Sasuke fight where he match chakra of of 9 bijuus with just his Senjutsu chakra nine tail gathered? You gotta agree that is above 100 time multiplier and Naruto here can do it.

Fair enough on the stats, but there is still no way to accurately determine the multiplier for Sage Mode, without using non-canon fan calcs. To sum it up, there is zero canonical evidence to support it being a greater multiplier than Kaio-Ken ×10 or 20.

Actually we don't need fan-calc to get the idea that boost is more than just 10 or 20 times. Not to mentioned Naruto can boost his stats even more with absorbing even more senjutsu chakra.

As I see Kiao-ken is totally outclassed by SM.

You better have a way of backing that last statement up. I agree Naruto wins in this thread. But Sage mode is not superior to Kaio-ken. The power of sage mode jumps up and down depending on how much senjutus chakra he absorbs. And there is no proof to suggest it is greater a than a 10x boost.

when will people get it that goku>naruto

this will never change all goku has to do is use kaiohken x 20 and that's it naruto will be too slow for him he will be able to blizt all the naruto clones

@houseshm: well said

Yes I have plenty of proofs to back myself up. And even regular Sage mode is boost more than just 10 times, but with Naruto's current mastery he was able to match strongest jutsu of Sasuke which is the combination of chakra of all bijuus with his senjutsu chakra.

I think if you read Naruto then you will know the instances I am talking about, but if you don't then I will be more than happy to post those moments.

Yet you didn't bother proving it when the Naruto debaters were wrecking house lol.

With stats equalized I'll give it to Naruto, he has a more versatile moveset, and is able to think on his feet. He is also much more strategic fighter than Goku.

He is?

Not a big Naruto fan the series seems interesting...

@great_black_star:

ass pull happens to every verse, but power level? LOL

There's a difference between an ass pull happening every now and then, but Naruto is literally the definition of the word ever since the War arc.

And to be fair, power levels (the numbers anyway) were only introduced for plot purposes. They were only meant to show how unreliable scouters were, since anyone with ki control can easily conceal their true power, thus fooling the people who can't sense ki.

Kiao-ken has only fixed multiplier but with SM, there is no limit with the multiplier.

They both have a limit. Goku can only increase his Kaio-Ken a certain amount, because of its devastating effects on his body. However, Naruto can only absorb so much Natural Energy as well.

The more senjutsu chakra he gather more power he become. Remember the Naruto vs Sasuke fight where he match chakra of of 9 bijuus with just his Senjutsu chakra nine tail gathered? You gotta agree that is above 100 time multiplier and Naruto here can do it.

I wouldn't say he multiplied his power 100× during that fight. Hell, I have my doubts about 10×. Remeber how Hagoromo said Madara had a power close to his? Well, Sasuke and Naruto were able to give him a run for his money without those amps. In fact, Kurama actually mentioned that Sasuke was on the level of Hagoromo after absorbing the chakra from all the Bijuu and Naruto was only able to match him using all the Natural Energy above ground. I highly doubt Naruto and Sasuke multiplied their power 10×, or that Hagoromo and Madara are 10× stronger than either of the two.

Actually we don't need fan-calc to get the idea that boost is more than just 10 or 20 times. Not to mentioned Naruto can boost his stats even more with absorbing even more senjutsu chakra.

So how can we prove that Naruto, even while absorbing all the natural energy above ground, can increase his power 10 or 20 fold? All we can really do is make an assumption here.

As I see Kiao-ken is totally outclassed by SM.

I disagree.

lol ok

Goku still wins IMO

Instant Transmission Kamehameha good game , seeing as how the Kamehameha travels faster naruto is toast

IJS.

Reading through the thread I'm convinced Naruto would win.

@thedarkpaladin:

There's a difference between an ass pull happening every now and then, but Naruto is literally the definition of the word ever since the War arc.

Thats seems just like your opinion only, to me only asspull I have seen in war arc is Kaguya. Other than that story was fine and I bet DBZ also have its own fair amount of aspull as well and on addition to that it have power levels LMAO.

And to be fair, power levels (the numbers anyway) were only introduced for plot purposes. They were only meant to show how unreliable scouters were, since anyone with ki control can easily conceal their true power, thus fooling the people who can't sense ki.

No amount of explanation is going to change the fact that POwer level is stupid, idiotic and nonsensical.

They both have a limit. Goku can only increase his Kaio-Ken a certain amount, because of its devastating effects on his body. However, Naruto can only absorb so much Natural Energy as well.

Not really, Goku seems to have limits only to 10/20 times multiplier while Naruto can just absorb whatever senjutsu chakra available around to multiple himself to far more that 100 times.

I wouldn't say he multiplied his power 100× during that fight. Hell, I have my doubts about 10×. Remeber how Hagoromo said Madara had a power close to his? Well, Sasuke and Naruto were able to give him a run for his money without those amps. In fact, Kurama actually mentioned that Sasuke was on the level of Hagoromo after absorbing the chakra from all the Bijuu and Naruto was only able to match him using all the Natural Energy above ground. I highly doubt Naruto and Sasuke multiplied their power 10×, or that Hagoromo and Madara are 10× stronger than either of the two.

Thats seems quite an ignorant post there. Naruto or Sasuke before sage amp got pawn by one-eye Madara without any Juubi like no named fodders.

So either you are completely ignoring the fact that senjutsu chakra they recieve were strong enough to compete a juubi jin, which has chakra equal to a planet.

So Juubi's chakra will boost one stats far more than 100 times. Now after recieving senjutsu chakra from Hogoromo Sasuke got his stats amp so much that from getting pawn by a one-eye Madara to blitzing Juudara.

Now thats suprisingly proves, senjutsu chakra boost one's stats far more than just 10 or 20 times. Still don't want to accept? Well lets take example of Naruto. Naruto in normal SM get blitze by blind Madara

And after receiving boost from Hogoromo, he did this in his SM only to Juudara

Point is Naruto can simply use that senjutsu boost anytimes he feels like. And that boost is far more than 10/20 times.

Well if you still don't wanna agree then I don't know what will make you accept it.

Is....is this an argument?

With physical stats equalized, meaning that Goku looses the overwhelming speed and power advantage that he normally has...he's essentially Rock Lee in the Naruto-verse, plus energy blasts and...solar flare I guess.

Naruto has clones, he has rasengan, he has rapid cellular regeneration, he has substitution-jutsu, he has ninja weapons/techniques, he can summon toads (arguably useless, depending on if we assume they are the same strength relative to Naruto as they have always been in this fight), he has the powers and abilities of Sage Chakra, he has had to conduct plans of attack against enemies who have MUCH more varied movesets than Goku (Goku probably has all around more combat experience, but 95% of his enemies all have the same powers, just to greater degrees than the last, the only exceptions being a few from when he was Kid Goku, Majin Buu, and now Hit, and possibly a couple others that I missed, while every single foe Naruto faces uses vastly different abilities that require a much greater degree of strategics).

Goku stomps Naruto usually because he can blow up planets casually while Naruto's peak is somewhere in the range of mountain buster to continent buster (difficult to say exactly where in that range). Take that advantage away and there is no way that Goku even begins to compete.

(also, for all the people talking about how Kaio-ken or Sage Mode are "techniques" and not "transformations" while this might be true from a technical, semantics level, the intent of the original post was clearly to take away the difference in raw power, which is why they didn't allow a boost via Super Saiyan, so I'd say that Kaio-Ken and Sage Mode shouldn't be viable to increase raw power)

@never_give_up: Yeah that pretty much sums it up, I'm up by 5 in the morning out by 6:30, back home by 8 in the evening. It's simple enough to follow a thread but actually engaging in the debate isn't important enough to me that I'd do it during my periods of free time thoughtful the day. Small posts every now and then are fine but the only way to counter a wall of text is to respond with a wall of text and that's something I most certainly wouldn't do.

if you stripped Golu of all his powers, he would still WIN. Compared to naruto, his feats in shitty conditions are insane enough to make naruto an amateur.

I'd give this to Goku, as his combat experience and Ki control out-weigh Naruto's by a great amount. All naruto has only ever relied on in any of his battles has been his large amount of Chakara and his low intelligence. Goku has faced people 10x stronger then naruto when he was a child, in fact kid goku is stronger then bijuu mode naruto. And since naruto's transformations also don't boost anything for him, and it would take him a while to charge up SM, this one goes to Goku with ease.

Thats what I tried to said but people are so determined to make Goku win even under such circumstances that they bringing Kiao-ken as it is not transformation.

No one can logically provide a counter to Naruto bumrushing with 100-1000 clones and ending it with Rasenshuriken variant, or a TBB. Equal stats means Goku can't outspeed him, he wouldn't be able to avoid any of it.

@marczaddy: how about a kiai cannon ?

@marczaddy: or better this ?

goku can fly.

@marczaddy: how about a BENDING kamehameha, Goku can one shot all the clones with this.

Naruto can fly as well

@theirishdoctor: You know stats are equal right?

Naruto crushes Goku with equal stats lmao.

@great_black_star: If they don't know that Naruto can fly, they're not worth a reply.

@marczaddy:i posted a counter for clones

@never_give_up:kk

@midnightdragon18: How would that help if he's surrounded completely? The moment he goes for some the rest would rush in. Plus, focusing on the clones leaves him open to a direct attack from Naruto. Naruto won't miss that chance, he'll end this easily.

@marczaddy: did you watch the first video ? Goku released energy from every direction, expect below.

lmao didnt neji still lose to him using a clone?

BTW i don't think goku has a sharinigan nor a byakugan, so he can't see through the clone to tell if its made of chakra or not. lmao.

and naruto is not right? because naruto wasnt in a ninja school since he was a kid learning how to fight. because ninja's don't learn how to be stone cold killers, masters of taijutsu, taught to have extreme levels of endurance, etc at a young age as well right? haha

because people like naruto, rock lee, sasuke, neji, they also haven't been training day after day since they were young children either right? they also haven't been fighting villain after villain for years on end either....smh

even if you compare there ages, GOKU at the beginning of DBZ was about ~20 years old. and raditz curb stomped him. by 16 naruto was spamming mountain busting attacks and at 18 tanked a move that bust a moon in half.

so comparing that, naruto evolved into a much more experienced fighter at a much faster rate.

i love goku, but with equal stats, he has maybe 3-4 moves to use (kamehameha wave, solar flare, various ki blasts, instant transmission) and his fighting skills. he won't have a speed advantage to over power a thousand clones at once like neji and sasuke did (they were both equally much faster then naruto, with sasuke having a stated advantage with his sharinagan being abel to see the difference between the clones one he got his completed sharinagon in there last fight in the main naruto series, pre-time skip)

So speed is equalized, strength is equalized, everything is EQUAL goku can either blast him or punch/kick him.

Naruto has been trained to use Weapons, HAs decent taijutsu(goku would have a strictly physical edge if they did go hand to hand) but has had moments where he has shown impressive physical movements, Has a variety of jutsu's that would confuse goku ( clones, substitution jutsu, transformation jutsu)

i mean how would goku handle naruto transforming into say gohan or krillin, especially with another naruto clone nearby to try and confuse him, and naruto HAS shown compatible transformation jutsu's as early as part 1. both in the chunin exams, and even as early as the first fight, verse zabuza.

thats all not including his various resengan morphs (compatible to gokus difference versions of kamehameha waves)

his insane durability( karuma's chakra inside of him heals him as rapid paces compared to normal people) His chakra cloaks and the various fuji-dama's that come with it(remember their strengths are equalized, so its not like its a weak move goku could just shrug off)

His speed boosts/strength boosts from sage mode, and his energy sensing, which i feel would be comparable to goku's ki sense (16 naruto could sense chakra from miles away, on an island, sealed into a special cave that physically blocks chakra from flowing in or out for the most part, naruto in sage mode still felt the chakra from the battlefield)

lets face it, if everything is equal, why would naruto go at it hand to hand only with goku?

Little kid naruto might be that dumb, but adult naruto has been shown to be able to comprehend the danger he would face, and would use clones instead.

any normal day goku would murder stomp naruto.

but if literally everything is equal. then i think it would be a very fair fight. Goku's superior hand to hand skills and pure strength of ki blasts, verse naruto's overwhelming numbers, pure strength of Resengan's/buji-damas, and his signature ninja-tricks he could use.

@karsa_toblakai: ok so how long ago did I say that? I have already since conceded that Naruto wins so I'm not going to address that stuff.

and naruto is not right? because naruto wasnt in a ninja school since he was a kid learning how to fight. because ninja's don't learn how to be stone cold killers, masters of taijutsu, taught to have extreme levels of endurance, etc at a young age as well right? haha

you either completely missed my point or are just playing dumb. I never said Naruto doesn't train. What I said was that Naruto'slife doesn't revolve around battle like Goku does. Naruto was never the kind of guy who wanted to fight, he has always wanted peace and got stronger to protect people. Naruto doesn't spend 24 hrs a day training to be stronger.

because people like naruto, rock lee, sasuke, neji, they also haven't been training day after day since they were young children either right? they also haven't been fighting villain after villain for years on end either....smh

Rock Lee is the only one there that trains everyday like Goku does. None of the ohters take upon Goku level training. Naruto doesn't even care about being the strongest all he cares about is being admired by everyone. Why do you think that once he became Hokage he stopped getting stronger, Kurama even states that Naruto had been slacking.

Goku trains regardless of whther it is a time of peace. Naruto is a lot more like Gohan.

even if you compare there ages, GOKU at the beginning of DBZ was about ~20 years old. and raditz curb stomped him. by 16 naruto was spamming mountain busting attacks and at 18 tanked a move that bust a moon in half.

Lol what beginning of Z goku could actually bust the moon so he was still more impressive than Naruto. even back then. Goku's growth rate is exterme.

so comparing that, naruto evolved into a much more experienced fighter at a much faster rate.

No he did not. Naruto never was some genius fighter that you are trying to make. Naruto just got random power ups without even training for them.

@midnightdragon18: That's great as a deflect, but it wouldn't work. Naruto already resisted Almighty Push from Pain using clones as a support. If Goku did that, he'd be wide open when Naruto pushes through.

@great_black_star:

Thats seems just like your opinion only, to me only asspull I have seen in war arc is Kaguya.

That isn't my opinion, that's Google's opinion. Lol

Other than that story was fine and I bet DBZ also have its own fair amount of aspull as well and on addition to that it have power levels LMAO.

The story being fine is just your opinion. I wouldn't say Naruto, or Dragon Ball for that matter, are by any means exceptional outside your average, everyday typical generic shonen, but that is the beauty of opinions - everyone has them.

No amount of explanation is going to change the fact that POwer level is stupid, idiotic and nonsensical.

Again, this is just your opinion. I could go on to list how Naruto is nothing but a ninja love story, and half the plot revolves around a naive little boy trying to find acceptance and get his emo friend to come home, not to mention the tiring, unnecessary flashbacks, but that isn't really what this debate is about, and none of this is actually relevant to the discussion.

Not really, Goku seems to have limits only to 10/20 times multiplier while Naruto can just absorb whatever senjutsu chakra available around to multiple himself to far more that 100 times.

As I said, that is all his body can take. He could potentially go higher than that if he wanted, but it would be a dangerous move on his part.

Thats seems quite an ignorant post there. Naruto or Sasuke before sage amp got pawn by one-eye Madara without any Juubi like no named fodders.

It isn't ignorant. You just failed to grasp its meaning. I'm talking about Naruto and Sasuke (after recieving Hagoromo's chakra) giving a Madara, who has a comparable power to Hagoromo himself, a run for his money and almost succeeding in sealing him. It actually seemed like they had the upper hand until Kaguya made her appearance.

So either you are completely ignoring the fact that senjutsu chakra they recieve were strong enough to compete a juubi jin, which has chakra equal to a planet.

I'm not ignoring anything. The fact of the matter is, Naruto with all of the natural energy Kurama could gather was only on Hagoromo's level at best. There is no way that energy multiplied his power 10×, and I have my doubts about it being more than 2 or 3, considering Naruto and Sasuke were already able to give a Hagoromo level opponent a hard time without that amp.

So Juubi's chakra will boost one stats far more than 100 times.

You have yet to prove it will boost his stats 10×, let alone 100×

Now after recieving senjutsu chakra from Hogoromo Sasuke got his stats amp so much that from getting pawn by a one-eye Madara to blitzing Juudara.

This only proves my point. Sasuke, before receiving the Bijuu amp, was already able to blitz Madara, who, again, was comparable to Hagoromo. After absorbing the Bijuu chakra, he was stated to be "on the level" of Hagoromo.

Yet, even after recieving all the natural energy above ground, Naruto could only hope for a stalemate.

That alone is more than enough proof that Sage Mode isn't anywhere near a 10× multiplier, even when using all the Natural Energy Kurama can muster up.

And after receiving boost from Hogoromo, he did this in his SM only to Juudara

Thanks to his boost from Hagoromo, which isn't the same thing as Sage Mode.

Not only that, but gathering so much Natural Energy takes time and requires Naruto to remain perfectly still.

Point is Naruto can simply use that senjutsu boost anytimes he feels like. And that boost is far more than 10/20 times.

You haven't managed to provide actual proof for this, mate. The evidence you have presented so far has been shaky at best.

Well if you still don't wanna agree then I don't know what will make you accept it.

I guess there is nothing left to discuss here then. You have your opinion, I have mine. We can just agree to disagree and leave it at that if you want.

@theirishdoctor:

(also, for all the people talking about how Kaio-ken or Sage Mode are "techniques" and not "transformations" while this might be true from a technical, semantics level, the intent of the original post was clearly to take away the difference in raw power, which is why they didn't allow a boost via Super Saiyan, so I'd say that Kaio-Ken and Sage Mode shouldn't be viable to increase raw power)

That may be true, but this technicality, so to speak, is the only thing making this match debatable at the moment.

I really didn't want to get into this but things need to be set. It seems like everyone here is ignoring the obvious.

To summarise everything for all the naruto fans,

ALL stats are equalised. Do you know what that means?

Kaio Ken, Sage mode, Kyuubi Chakra mode, Super saiyan all of these forms and transformations DO NOT increase the abilities of the users.

CLONES

Everyone here seems to be ignoring the obvious. This is especially important because I see people bringing up the idea of clones? Are you serious?? When naruto uses a clone, it decreases his chakra in some form but we never really know because of his large storage capacity that the Kyuubi has within him. The point is, In this instance, he and Goku are exactly equal; Making a hundred thousand clones or whatever speculated number would reduce his strength to a really low level if not entirely kill him. I don't even know why people talk about Naruto making a thousand clones when the highest CONFIRMED number of clones he has made thus far is 999.Any number beyond that is purely speculation.

" This is considered a kinjutsu, because it can potentially be dangerous to the person performing it, seeing as how all of the clones are given an equal amount of chakra directly from the user. "

^^^ A quote, directly stating how damaging the multiple shadow clone technique is.

" This technique is also used by Naruto to train quickly, since all the clones share their experiences with Naruto, but it causes extreme fatigue with repeated use. "

The maximum amount of clones he has ever created was 999 and yet, training with his other clones cause him extreme fatigue.

In short: It would be absolutely stupid for Naruto to use clones in this fight when all that keeps Goku's punches from flying through his face is their equal stats. Making a vast amount of clones (Which I should mention, are weak enough to be destroying in one punch by either Goku or Naruto) would only reduce his power and stats, giving Goku the advantage so I'm sure we can rule that idea out.

H2H

It's easy to see why people would think that Naruto and Goku are equal in terms of plain hand to hand fighting skill but it really isn't as good a case as people think. The closest thing the show has to proper martial arts techniques is Taijutsu which Naruto only got better at after training with Jiraiya. That isn't a bad thing, He has ninjutsu to make up for it and was never really expected to fight in a H2H scenario so he's forgiven whereas Goku is a martial arts expert and genius. That shouldn't be overlooked. He creates physical techniques on the fly and uses them in skilful ways to decimate his opponents.

Watch this fight and try to picture the scene in slow motion without both parties having any powers or abilities. https://youtu.be/E-MvzIwPIpQ?t=16s - The problem with DBZ and DBS is that due to the fast pace of the fighting scenes people always assume that they don't involve any manner of martial arts ability. If you watch carefully, you will see that Goku used a plethora of kicks and punches that were all blocked by HIT. Keep in mind that Goku trained physically with Beerus, Whis, Vegeta and many powerful people.

Swap Hit for Naruto in that instance, If you honestly think that naruto would block and dodge all those attacks easily then there isn't much I can say.

Technique

When it comes to technique, Even in the current state, Naruto's styles are repeated. Again, that's not necessarily a bad thing as it's always successful but this is an instance where it will not work.

The majority of a non-PIS Naruto fight involves naruto charging at the opponent, using clones and finding time to use a rasengan or rasenshuriken. That's it, If someone can show me a current fight where Naruto doesn't just use those things but utilises them in a different and effective way then I'll gladly retract that statement.

I don't think I really need to give a list of the different techniques Goku uses in battle. He literally states that he loves to try out new things in the middle of battle just for the hell of it.

For evidence - Goku vs Vegeta, Goku vs Vegeta (Majiin) and literally almost every fight he has been in.

A really good example would be this technique - https://youtu.be/oYOpc4kZ_-s?t=1m46s

In that fight, we know Goku is playing around because he is still in base form but he literally says that he's saving it for later so that he can test out Hit's ability by trying out new things. Whenever Naruto learns something new that seems to be really powerful, if possible, he uses it the first instance and never learns from the experience.

To summarise this section; Naruto would use the same sequence of fighting style toward Goku whereas the Saiyan most likely won't even transform into super saiyan as he will focus on finding a weakness in Naruto's style before going on the offensive.

Pretty clear cut.

Yea y'all aren't changing my minds on Naruto winning this fight.

With equal stats, Naruto is too versatile for Goku to handle.

Just showing how fanboys are overhyping Goku. What technique of Naruto can Goku learn? Shadow clones? Rasenshuriken?

Except he has no way to counter Naruto's jutsus, Goku is genius in Dragon Ball where a handful of people has decent abilities. Naruto low tiers have better hax than Dragon Ball

taijutsu