Jean Grey & Zatanna vs Raven & Wanda

RULES:

Morals off.

Random encounter.

Perfect teamwork.

616 and Post Crisis->current versions.

Base versions ( no Phoenix, HOM, Trigon form, Lord of Chaos etc)

Win by death, KO, incap.

ROUNDS:

R1: No TP, Emphathy, Soul Manip.

R2: Anything goes

bump.

R1 goes to Raven & Wanda. Without telepathy, Jean's TK isn't enough to handle Raven, even if Raven doesn't have her empathy powers. Raven would beat Jean much sooner than Zatanna can beat Wanda, and then Zatanna goes down in a 1v2.

R2 goes to Jean & Zatanna. Raven's psychic defences aren't good enough to block Jean, and same goes for Wanda.

This and zatanna is powerful and accomplished in psychic magic stuff. So she could add her magic with jeans TP and call it a day.

T2 raven could easily beat zatanna.

Wanda and jean is tossups

I wouldn't count on that happening unless they have perfect teamwork and some prep. Zatanna never opts for psychic attacks, and she doesn't use psychic-type magic in combat either.

I know but she wouldn't need Jean to defend her from psychic assault as she's pretty proficient in that.

Not really. Her best feat against "psychic assault" was kicking MMH out of her head, and he wasn't exactly trying very hard to resist. Going through someone's mind and even something like mind control aren't psychic assaults. Zatanna has no answer to an actual psychic assault if Raven were to go for that.

@geekryan: Zatanna got overpowered by Dr Psycho lol she ain't all that

Which is what I'm saying...Mage101 is the one saying she has good psychic defences.

Yea we know

What exactly does Raven do? Like how is she attacking? Does she go for Tp stuff? Magic? soul manip stuff? She's always been hard for me to figure out from the little i've read of her

Zatanna also blocked out insomnia, saw through j'onn illusions while having a mental fit, undid despero mind hax. That martian manhunter feat isn't the only psi defense feat that she has, throwing it around saying that it's the only psi feat that she has is false, this is the same manhunter that has gone through the jla mind (wonder woman, superman, GL etc) and they couldn't do anything in fact j'onn has used illusions on the jla and they couldn't do anything and zatanna saw through his illusions and kick him out, I don't think that martian manhunter would just want himself to be kicked out twice. And I'm not going to say that it's her best feat the one against despero, Zor, insomnia and more are better. Raven will be able to use her TP on zatanna if she doesn't use her magic to protect herself.

@marvelfan1992: Raven is a complicated one, in the post crisis timeline she rarely used magic and often used emotions manipulation and soul self attacks but in the new52 and rebirth version it's interchangeable.

@professorrespect: And zatanna has kicked j'onn out of her mind twice, blocked insomnia, undid despero mind hax that j'onn couldn't accomplish, resisted zor etc let's not act like everyone doesn't have low-end, Dr psycho might have even caught her off-guard and even accomplished telepaths like martian manhunter, jean, aquaman, Emma frost have feats similar to that.

What exactly is impressive about that Doctor Psycho feat? The fact that he controlled her blank state of mind of like three seconds, couldn't get her to do anything for him, basically foiled his plan, and that she broke out of his control rather easily few pages after?

Nothing that contradicts Zatanna being a high tier telepath.

Zatanna arguably has best raw power TP here, given her constant clowning on DC telepaths.

A lot of those feats were done by Zatanna via magic and before the effects had occurred, i.e. Zatanna protecting herself in advance OR relying on willpower. A psychic attack from Jean wouldn't be stopped by willpower. If Jean tried to mind control Zatanna, then I would say an argument could be made.

I didn't say it was her only feat, I said it was her best one. Don't put words in my mouth. I am one of Zatanna's biggest fans/supporters on CV, and I am well aware of her capabilities, as well as her limits.

@soratoumiga said:

What exactly is impressive about that Doctor Psycho feat? The fact that he controlled her blank state of mind of like three seconds, couldn't get her to do anything for him, basically foiled his plan, and that she broke out of his control rather easily few pages after?

Nothing that contradicts Zatanna being a high tier telepath.

Zatanna arguably has best raw power TP here, given her constant clowning on DC telepaths.

Coming from you, who thinks Wanda is a high tier telepath and can defend from Jean Grey....you are the furthest from a reputable source when it comes to telepathy or psychic abilities.

@geekryan: No one mentioned Wanda, and yet you bring her up... Obsessed much?

Nonetheless, I reiterate that Doctor Psycho feat is nothing impressive, and highlight those feats Mage listed. For a person who claims to be a big Zatanna fan, you argue against her massive psychic might too often. Or is it just that you'll wank psychic-based characters against any character?

OT: Raven beats Jean, and joins Wanda against Zatanna. T2 wins comfortably. Alternatively, Wanda beats Jean and joins Raven against Zatanna.

R1 - Raven and Wanda

R2 - Jean and Z

@geekryan:

A lot of those feats were done by Zatanna via magic and before the effects had occurred, i.e. Zatanna protecting herself in advance OR relying on willpower.

That was what I meant with my statement, zatanna is a mage so she'll use magic to protect herself from psychic assault even strange does the same. I don't know about the second part because zatanna used magic to protect herself from insomnia after she saw her friends going to sleep so the effect already occurred.

A psychic attack from Jean wouldn't be stopped by willpower

I know this already only storm fans will think that willpower will stop that kind of assault, my point is that zatanna magic is potent enough to block psychic assault hence why I said if she isn't caught off guard.

I didn't say it was her only feat, I said it was her best one

You always bring out the feat like it's the best she's got that's why I stated that. It was a misunderstanding.

Willpower wise I wouldn't even call that her best feat, magic wise it isn't close.

If Jean tried to mind control Zatanna, then I would say an argument could be made.

My point was that zatanna magic can counter psychic assault not that she has innate mental shields that helps her block it even characters with strong minds result to use their magic to fend off psychic assault (strange, doom etc). My point was never about her having natural shield but using her magic to compensate. Hope you understand.

👍🏻

I am back oh boy

Team 2 win both fights. Raven might easily solo if we look at her encounter vs Zatanna (in fact, against a Justice League and Teen Titans combined) in pre-crisis, having Wanda around just seal the deal of the battle even more solidly.

Raven is the fastest on the draw and have the vastest array of powers to use, not just telepathy/empathy. and even if her tp/empathy powers are just one among those she is good enough with them as well, and definitely won't be taken down by such attacks even coming from Jean. Not quick enough anyway, not before Raven will use her own abilities to affect Jean, and a morals off Raven can be pretty vicious and ruthless

A case can be made for Zatanna vs Wanda, as Wanda might be a wild card but I suppose it can go both ways. Either way I say Raven and Wanda will win a significant majority

sucks for you LOL

The Raven and Scarlet Witch. Jean is limited with only TK giving Team 2 more option

@marvelfan1992: First round goes to Raven and Wanda .

Second, Jean will go straight for a telepathic assaults on Wanda . Leaving Raven vs Jean/Zee . Which I'm inclined to say Zee knows Raven , and Raven would be focused on Jean leaving her for an open attack .

Kind of like that time Raven fought spectre and doomsday bullrushed her ass while she was preoccupied. Zatanna could do the same while she's focused on Jean. Unless she goes morals off

Round 1: Possibly either way
Round 2: Jean stomps.… Wanda tp defense is eh and Raven mental abilities are overrated. The feats don’t match the hype but they don’t want to admit it but I will.

jean one shots wanda

raven gets gangbanged by zatanna and jean

Don't see why Raven doesn't just solo both rounds. Her psychic defenses are more than solid enough if she's morals-off.

R1: Team Two

R2: Team One