@professorrespect: I'd assume that would be because Vision has better physicals overall? If so, what feats would you point to to indicate it?
Not saying Vision doesn't win to be clear, just interested to know what the arguments are.
Vision obviously isn't known for his strength, but he's physically strong enough to at least hang with any high tier. Some of his more notable strength feats I'll post below.
When enraged, beats around the Silver Surfer who specifically remarks that Vision's strength is nearly comparable to his own:
Since Vision relies primarily on his other powers, it's hard to say what his strength normally operates on, but if we use the higher end examples, he should win here, IMO.
Though, besides his more high end strength feats, what other advantages would you say he has?
He's more versatile overall.
Energy Projection
He has his solar beams, so he'd be the only one with a ranged attack. It's several times hotter than the surface of the sun at casual levels and can match Iron Man's repulsors:
(All-New, All-Different Avengers #6)
It can also be used to blind targets:
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(Avengers Origins #1 / Avengers #66)
And can be released as an AoE:
(Avengers AI #1)
Physiology
He has a repair system that functions as a light healing factor, he can repair a bunch of broken limbs after a fairly short period of time:
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(Avengers Vol. 1 312)
But more importantly (since vultrimites have regenerative abilities too), as his current body is comprised of nanites, he can also alter his form and even split it:
(Avengers AI #3)
He has density control, which while not used for phasing, could still be used to increase his density and no-sell any of Omni-Man's attacks at max density since he was doing the same to Immortal Hulk:
Though, besides his more high end strength feats, what other advantages would you say he has?
He's more versatile overall.
Energy Projection
He has his solar beams, so he'd be the only one with a ranged attack. It's several times hotter than the surface of the sun at casual levels and can match Iron Man's repulsors:
Vision solos invincible Omni man is nowhere near planet level even with marks moon level feat scaling would be a stretch too since Mark needed help.
Vision negs
Yeah, my understanding has always been that Viltrumites are roughly moon-level at best.
Though is Vision really planet level?
Supreme is a liar. Not once Vision did anything moon level much less planet level. Ever. He is relying on crossover scaling to other powerful characters whom Invincible and Omni Man match planet busters multiple times in canon events as well. Supreme is just a bias Invincible hater debater.
Word of God
Skybound official website states the Viltrumites Thaedus, Nolan, and Mark FLEW DIRECTLY INTO VILTRUMS CORE, CAUSING THE PLANET TO EXPLODE without mention of the laser playing any role.
Kirkmen states flat out they punch a planet and it blew up.
Stated in interview and Kirkman agrees Invincible can deal with planetary scale threats.
Robert Kirkman agrees the Viltrumites can punch through planets, and agrees with this twice in the same interview.
Erik Larsen who wrote the Omni Man vs Supreme and Invincible vs Solar Man states in interview Supreme and Solar Man are close in power levels. Meaning a weaker version of mark beat back at times, and took blows from a Supreme level character.
All three men in this interview are credible word of Gods on Hulk and his limits. Robert Kirkman wrote multiple Marvel comics and has written Hulk multiple times in his Marvel Team Up comics. Cory drew Hulk and his action scenes in the same comics Kirkmen wrote. Ryan is the current mainstay Hulk artist for Hulk comics, and has explicit knowledge on current Hulk and his abilities, drawing the feats of said Hulk. All three agree EoS Mark can beat Hulk in 1 on 1. Hulk biggest issue is healing to fast to be kept down, however BFRing Hulk into space is something Mark can for sure do, and stated can rip Hulk apart physically with his strength. Able to by pass Hulks durability for sure. 3 Word of gods on the subject and characters agreeing.
In Comic Statements
Allen is stated to attain light speed near planets, but reaching such speeds would damage the planet, so he does not. Able to wreck planets on speed alone.
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Tech Jacket alone can hold his own against Null who before this fight easy beat a stated world eating being who had stated limitless power. This matters as Tech Jacket was weaker than Invincible and Thragg by alot, and still puts up a fight for Null.
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Scan one, Omnipotus states he feeds off the universes he is in and can re shape worlds. Scan 2 Omnipotus states he can drain whole universes dry and did so his last one. Scan 3, stated to have unlimited power. Scan 4, Omnipotus powers are stated to manipulate energy, bend space time, and re write laws of physics. Also stated he can destroy star systems with chain reactions and remake the surface of planets with his current power. Also stated the cosmic energy flowing through Omnipotus makes him nearly invulnerable. The final parts of this is that Omnipotus was planet level already and reaching greater strength feeding off the Invincible Earth. Stated he was full powered. Scan 4, states again he is fully powered than the last time. Yet Dinosaurus teeth and strength shreds Omnipotus skull and rips it off. Killing the universe conqueror in one attack.
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Allen states twice his home world was destroyed by Viltrumites. Completely destroyed with nothing to go back to.
Annissa states they will destroy Earth once the resources are used up. This could mean the Earth is ruin in terms of the word use, but considering the tons of proof in this thread can easily be assume the Earth be destroyed in a more literal sense by the Viltrumites themselves when nothing of use is left. Stating humans will still be on the planet and alive when it happens. So clearly she does not mean the earth be unhabitual from resource draining as humans still be alive on the planet when they destroy it.
Battle Beast explains and states clearly that the fight with Thragg and himself can tear a planet apart alone.
Kirkman writes straight up this page where Invincible state that they can and have punch through planets.
Thragg again confirm the Viltrumites destroyed the planet Viltrum and never mentions Racer or the laser.
Thragg states thirty seven fodder Viltrumites, weaker than Nolan or Invincible, can tear Earth apart physically, making each Viltrumite capable of tearing two moons worth of mass apart physically. characters like Thragg being above several Viltrumites alone in battle. casual moon level and small planetary level.
I will use the reference of the rocky planet TOI-270 b which has about twice the mass of Earth, but less than 1.23 more surface gravity and diameter (Rjup means Jupiter radius, so the diameter is 15562km).
Assuming all the mass was ejected at the escape velocity in a single second (which is fair enough given the circumstances and situation):
F = ma = 6.0939803e+23×13807 =8.4139586e+27N//857.9849999 sextillion tons of force.~ This is the equivalent of accelerating Earth’s mass (if it was gravitationally bound together strong enough to stay in a piece whilst being shifted from its position) at
1408.85412411m/s².
Method 2:
Work Done (J) = Force×Distance (Nm).
->A newton-metre is the product of a force of one newton acting perpendicularly to the end of a moment arm with a length of one metre. This measurement is commonly used to express torque, but can also be used to quantify work or energy, in which case it is equivalent to the joule, the standard SI unit of energy.
Planetary diameter = 15562km (15562000m).
Kinetic Energy:
= 1/2*6.0939803e+23*13807^2 = 5.8085763e+31J//13.88 Zettatons of TNT (Small Planet Level).
Force (N) = Work Done (J)÷Distance (m) = 5.8085763e+31/15562000 = 3.7325384e+24N//380.6 Quintillion tons of force.~ This is the equivalent of accelerating the Moon’s mass (if it was gravitationally bound together strong enough to stay in a piece whilst being shifted from its position) at 50.8m/s².
Planet Viltrum is 1.25 the gravity of Earth, which makes it by calcs many times denser than Earth. Thadeus states they need to reach the core of the planet at same time as Space Rider energy beam or die on impact with the denser than Earth planet core. The energy beam only used to destabilize the core, which would re stabilize near instantly. The Omni-Man, Thaddeus, and Invincible physically punch through the planet at light speeds by art. The last scan also confirms the trio indeed "punch through a planet". The calcs of this feat done by many people over time have always confirm small planetary in feat. Regardless the core being disrupted. Here’s an explanation of the context of the ray’s role:
‘ll assume some type of tactile TK is involved as to why the celestial body isn’t breaking into multiple pieces or why they can exert such force on such a small surface area not break through it, etc. Same as most similar DC+Marvel feats tbh.
V = 4/3πr³ = 4/3×π×1309085.73718³ = 9.3970791e+18m³.
Density:
Average asteroid assumed density value = 2g/cm³ = 2000kg/cm³.
Mass:
Mass = ρV = 9.3970791e+18×2000 = 1.8794158e+22kg.
Kinetic Energy:
•I’ll assume the celestial body/asteroid had an orbit around the Sun and is relatively close to Mars (which is 1.524AU//2.27987e+11m away from the Sun). Mark and Tick freely moving it means they broke it out of its natural elliptical gravitational orbit around the sun.
Orbital velocity of the asteroid around the Sun = √GM/r = √6.6742867e-11*1.989e+30/2.27987e+11 = 24130.41431496774m/s (similar to Mars’ around the Sun).
Escape velocity of the asteroid from 1.524AU = √2GM/r = √2×6.6742867e-11×1.989e+30/2.27987e+11 = 34125.55918985065m/s.
Ek = ½mv² = ½×1.8794158e+22×34125.55918985065^2 =1.0943404e+31J//2.6155363288719222 Zettatons of TNT (Small Planet Level).✔️
•If Et is positive(+), the object can escape the parent body’s gravitational influence. If negative(-), it cannot. ~ The two energy results (Ep & previous Ek) match up 1:1, and so the object can escape the parent body’s gravitational influence.
Force:
Work Done (J) = Force×Distance (Nm).
->A newton-metre is the product of a force of one newton acting perpendicularly to the end of a moment arm with a length of one metre. This measurement is commonly used to express torque, but can also be used to quantify work or energy, in which case it is equivalent to the joule, the standard SI unit of energy.
•I’ll assume the asteroid was a distance away from Mars comparable to Phobos, i.e. 6000km//6000000m.
Force (N) = Work Done (J)÷Distance (m) = 1.0943404e+31÷6000000 = 1.8239007e+24N//186 quintillion tons of force.
— -Assuming they did equal work: AP - 1.0943404e+31J÷2 = 5.471702e+30J (Small Planet Level), Force - 1.8239007e+24N÷2 = 9.1195035e+23N//93 quintillion tons of force.
Viltrumite War Mark hurls Tick and himself with enough force to kick this dwarfs planet/moon size planetoid out of its orbit, through swath of space, and onto the surface of Mars. Tick himself is only building busting level in comics, Stated twice his only real super power is nigh-invulnerability, toon force like durability. Also stated by the Martian that Tick is inferior to Martian's strength and power, however a Viltrumite is the most powerful being in Tick universe by comparison by said Martian. So we see Mark was using Tick's as a nigh invulnerable bullet. Momentum which Mark had to create with his own strength. This feat of throwing Tick with the needed force and kicking moon with Tick as a glorified bullet is all Invincible power. This feat is actual canon. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/invincible-crossover-canon-2262961/
Nolan stated that in the past, he once stopped a meteor the size of Texas…
Texas is enormous, it's bigger than most countries with an area of 695,663.04square kilometers. Multiplying the surface area of Texas with the 35 kilometer thickness of continental crust, this means Texas has a total volume of 24,348,206.4 cubic kilometer.
Taking the 3,700 kilogram per cubic meter density of meteorite rock and applying it to the 24,348,206.4 cubic kilometer volume of Texas, the meteor should have a mass of 9.01×10^19 kilograms.
Meteors are typically very fast, their speed ranging between 11,000 meters per second and 72,000 meters per second. So for this calc, let’s use 11,000 meters per second as a lowball and 72,000 meters per second as a highball.
Taking the meteors mass and the 2 speeds for the meteor, running it under a kinetic energy calculator. I can conclude that this meteor would be exerting 5.45×10^27 Joules on a low end and 2.34×10^29 Joules on a high end.
Final results:
Low-end: 5.45×10^27J or 1.3 Exatons (Multi-Continental Level)
High-end: 2.34×10^29J or 55.93 Exatons (Moon Level)
In the Kirkmen written show, again written and co directed by Kirkmen himself, Omni Man states he can catch and throw back Texas size asteroids in space from earths orbit, a casual moon level feats by most calcs.
The CoP team take off from Earth and reach an entirely different star system:
Mark gives the time-frame of a ‘few days’ (presumed around a week) since take-off:
Speed(velocity) — d/t = 68311838.6243 km/s ~ 68311838624.3 m/s
Mass of CoP ship — At least 100,000 metric tons ~ 100,000,000 kg (whole craft for Interstellar voyage + multiple massive facilities within + bridge leading to deck/base.)
Ek — 1/2mv^2 = 1/2*100000000*68311838624.3^2 = 2.3332536481162e+29J//55.77 Exatons of TNT (Moon level+).
55.77/3(viltrumites) = 18.59 Exatons of TNT for EACH Viltrumite (Multi-Continental level+)…
Viltrumites weaker than Invincible and Omni Man alone dealing casual Multi Continental damage feats with no damage to themselves.
Total yield energy taken by character : Intensity * Cross-Sectional Area = 6.57 petatons (Multi-Continental level)
One of the weakest versions of Invincible already brush off multi continent level nuke explosions from super nukes with no damage.
Scaling
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Universa staff is stated "put the planet in jeopardy." Stated the planet earth is rich in energy and she "wanted it all". Stated her planet is 8 times size of earth and her staff would "drain this planet dry." That is how powerful this staff is. Viltrumite War Mark here is hit by Universa staff multiple times with enough stated energy to "a burst capable of leveling cities" and even "ending civilizations". In fact the whole reason Mark had to fight her was she would drain Earth of all energy in said staff. What defines Civilizations? The customs, arts, social institutions, and achievements of a particular nation, people, or other social group. - Webster
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As seen before, Omnipotus was already empowered by the Earths energy to full power before fighting Dinosaurus. Omnipotus power is absorbing energy of planets and stated shaper of worlds as he can bend time and space, re write physics, chain react solar systems to explode, and reality warping powers. What is also is stated in bio as a fact that Omnipotus durability and strength is proportionate to the energy coursing in his body at the time. Dinosaurus beat this level of power and durability however with a single massive attack. Then few comics later Dinosuaurs shows zero damage to Thragg with his claws and teeth with same attacks. Proving for a fact Thragg is leagues above a World Shaper and immune to all shown powerhouses like Omnipotus.
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Tech Jacket's armor is nearly crush utterly with ease from Viltrumites like Annisa who is weaker than Omni Man, Invincible, and Thragg. A big deal of feat as older and inferior Tech Jackets can sit on the surface of the sun with no damage. This character Null was stuck on the sun Surface for months. If our moon was placed on the surface of the sun it would be torn apart by the forces. We also see Jacket throw a battleship size spaceship from Earth Orbit to the Sun at clear FTL speeds, and the force of the impact causes a planet size visible explosion on said sun surface in art. Another feat is when Star Eating and Planet Busting space ships are stated the size of Eurasia. That is the landmass of Europe and Asia combine in size and mass. That is how large these ships are. The super Nuke used on the ship blew out a hole by scale easily in the moon range of damage. Tech Jacket was hit at Ground Zero by this super nuke and survives with major damage.
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Invincible gain his powers in Invincible #1 January, 2003 and Invincible War takes place in Invincible #60 March, 2009. Spawn was his 2nd Age version as per Spawn #122 December, 2002 and Spawn #123 February, 2003. Spawn undergoes Legion Spawn, Divine Spawn, and God Spawn in that time. Spawn #122 March, 2009 is Downing Spawn just getting his powers. Thats the version Evil Invincible would been fighting in Invincible War and the version he clearly BEATEN. That means this Evil Invincible killed a Simmons, a First Age Spawn in power, between that time frame of comics. A average level Viltrumite beating a First Age Spawn in power at the MINIMUM. Same Spawn that would in order of feats possesed reality warping Necro Power, Energy that matches the weight and gravity of a star, teleport FTL dismemberment, cause massive illusions, out speed bio lasers after they are fired, and dish out world shaking blows. That is the power and stats of a weaker Viltrumite.
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Dominex was a super powerful being who trump even Moore Supreme. In a dragged out fight lasting 17 hours, we see Omni Man standing tall with no real lasting damage from the fight against a foe who casually smack around and survive blows from Moore Supreme. Moore Supreme himself is so strong can smash foes to the center of the earth easy, able to move continents. Moore Supreme and Suprema show the ability to fly past the Event Horizon of a Blackhole and back out undamaged. Stated Moore Supreme durable enough to smash through planets and stars at light speeds. This feat is actual canon. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/invincible-crossover-canon-2262961/
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Mean Supreme is a character who showed the power to bust worlds. In the previous comic, Omni-Man fights into a stalemate Mean Supreme who never holds back. Mean Supreme is the Supreme that came before Moore Supreme, making him Liefeld Supreme. Also stated by classic Supreme the strongest of all the known Surpemes. Able to casually bust planet wrecking meteors, and bash through planets at full power. Khrom states and shows he has the ability to blast to the center of the planets and destroy them. Mean Supreme tanks this same blast to no real affect on Supreme. All 100% Image Comic Crossover https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/invincible-crossover-canon-2262961/
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In Savage Dragon Universo is stated a planet killing cosmic being twice in both scans 1 and 2. Universo drains planets of energy and life. Universo was at first losing energy fighting superman knock off Mighty Man, but then regain more power and energy catching Mighty Man and Savage Dragon as well draining the planet at the same time. With all this power he regain, Solar Man comes out of nowhere and easily beats Universo, even spinning fast enough to scatter Universo's more power pure energy form into nothingness. Next we see Universo's herald called Mother Mayhem is stated durable enough to withstand Blackholes and Comsic Showers. Get one shotted and reduce to ash by Solar Man. Solar Man also was way too powerful for Witchblade who is stated canon wise same Witchblade of Image comics up (2008) with the crazy feats and power she has shown, and mentions the canon of Altered Image event in Image Comics. Simmons Spawn is right after Issue #184. Spawn lost the power of Legion but was still same power as Second Metamorphis, or as some know it First Age power wise. Stated depleted in Necro Power at the start of the fight, but later shown and stated to regain his power. First Age level Spawn was no match for Solar Man. Even with Witch Blades help. The writer Erik Larsen in interview also stated Solar Man was equals with Mean Supreme who Larsen was the writer of as well. Mean Supreme being another casual planet buster. Finally we get to the last set of scans where we see clearly a Post Work Out Mark (2008) took hits from Solar Man, a casual planet buster in Savage Dragon Comics as proven. Saving Witchblade and Dragon that entire fight while even Spawn did fug all even when recharge with power. While its true Mark could not beat Solar Man at all, the context is Mark was still weak at the time of this comic, below his father Omni-Man still. Yet, Mark is the only one tanking serious blows from Solar Man with no shown damage, and constantly saving the other heavy hitter Image Heroes. Even after Solar Man claims to stop holding back Mark saves his team and punches Solar Man away. This feat is actual canon. https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/invincible-crossover-canon-2262961/
Add to all of this Invincible blitzes Vision thousand times over in speed feats.
He has his solar beams, so he'd be the only one with a ranged attack. It's several times hotter than the surface of the sun at casual levels and can match Iron Man's repulsors:
Add to all of this Invincible blitzes Vision thousand times over in speed feats
What feats says he can do this? Vision has a high speed computer brain that can process things in a nanosecond like I showed above, but also he had no problem tagging a speedster who could statue Quicksilver.
Mark pulls a She hulk on Vision.
Vision's body was already melted and disabled when she did that:
That's also one of Vision's vastly outdated bodies.
Add to all of this Invincible blitzes Vision thousand times over in speed feats
What feats says he can do this? Vision has a high speed computer brain that can process things in a nanosecond like I showed above, but also he had no problem tagging a speedster who could statue Quicksilver.
Mark pulls a She hulk on Vision.
Vision's body was already melted and disabled when she did that:
That's also one of Vision's vastly outdated bodies.
She-Hulk was also amped.
1) No reason Nolan cannot pull the same feat unless you suggest Vision is moon level or higher which is nonsense.
2) Vision gets blitz hard, nanosecond reactions are shit to these speeds feats.
How their combat and reaction speed works.
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Omni-Man's speed is stated to ignore gravity, and stated that near light speeds Omni-Man has lightspeed reaction due to time dilation that comes with traveling at those speeds. Omni-Man speed can by pass Speed of Light due to the sub space jumping of his atoms.
Stated his reflexes are proportion to the speeds he attains. Faster Allen is going the faster his reflexes.
Mark clearly states when he holds back, he is slower. This is why slower people are not blitzed, because as stated Invincible holds back, which makes him slower. Supported by the above statements of Omni Man and Allen the Alien. Time dilation to speed, and reflexes to how fast they are going.
Feats of just flying around.
Viltrumite War Mark again in one page flies so fast the stars are blurs.
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Viltrum planet itself is in the separate Galaxy Super Cluster called the Virgo Cluster. Yet the ships and characters can freely travel between Earth in the Local Group Cluster and the Virgo Cluster in less than two weeks time frame. Even better is the fact we see for speed Invincible jump out and fly faster than the ship itself, going from zero to max speed at MFTL speed time frame.
Actual Reaction feats.
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In the time of a single phone call to Mark right after Immortal leaves for space, Immortal is in orbit and located Allen who is still moving so fast the stars are semi blurs in background.
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As stated, Allen the Alien is moving so fast he is able to enter the Oort Cloud area and reach Earth in 12 minuets flat at cruising speed. we see combat and reaction speed as Invincible exits to intercept and in the vastness of space in no time flat Allen reaches earth, able to scour the orbit and find Invincible, and get the first attack in. Travel, reaction, and Comabt speed wrapped into one.
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Racer tracks and follows a Viltrumite flying from one solar system to another, meaning traveling at FTL Speeds. Speeds shown in the panels. Space Racer at these speeds even navigates through a asteroid field.
Space Racer has speed equivalent to Omni-Man. Rapid firing his space gun, Thragg dances around the beams in reaction to fast for Space Racer own reaction speed.
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Allen the Alien is cruising casually through space, and dodges a FTL Viltrumite ship that appears out of nowhere. The stars in art being blurs in some areas. The ship and its Viltrumites at this FTL speeds notice Allen and stop before getting much futher away from Allen.
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Viltrumite War Mark and Omni Man travel from one planet in another Solar System all the way to the capital planet of the galaxy in the same amount of time that a few hours worth battle took place. They not only arrive in that time frame, but blitz the other Viltrumites upon arrival,. Meaning they located their targets in battle with a city planet in that same time frame.
Actual combat speed feats used in the FTL category.
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The super power villain Cho was so fast that he can land 100s of punches in what appeared to be 1 punch. Even when Robot slowed footage down by x100, the villain was still appearing as a multi image. Robot states this is close to Viltrumite Combat Speed.
Jacket casually dodges and reacts to laser grid. Also stated is Jacket must target small targets on the lasers to stop them from firing. Finally stated is that to dodge the lasers and hit the targets, Jacket has to let go of his senses and let the Jacket make the shots, and dodge the lasers. As a blur the Jacket dodges the blasts and hits the targets.
As seen in the Null fight, the again weaker version of jacket was shooting stated lasers, and Null dance around them while Jacket kept up and banter with the super being. The lasers are in slow motion to both of them in comparison.
Racer stated he could somewhat keep track of the battle across the planet at rapid rates between Battle Beast and Thragg. As both Thragg and Beast threw hands across the planet surface, Racer could not keep up what was going on in the fight even though he has proven FTL reaction feats already.
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As stated the planets are moving so fast they are blurs. Moving FTL speeds across the galaxy. Viltrumites many light years away locked on to this ship, and bull rush it. The ship tries to change course at FTL speeds, and the Viltrumites simply reacted and follow the course change. Ramming the ship. The escape ship in the last scan proves the ship that was destroyed never slowed in FTL speeds since Mark notice the escape ship was moving faster then the original ship. A clear FTL reaction and attack feat.
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Viltrumite War Mark in a clear showing of on panel lightspeed, is able to keep up with the Laser, Thaddeus, and Omni-Man. A showing of reaction and combat speed as Mark is smiling to his father as his father helps pull him closer.
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As seen clearly, panel by panel, Tech Jacket, Allen, Battle Beast, and all the Viltrumites start in orbit on one side of the planet. Mark, Thaddeus, and Nolan faster than light punch through the planet next panel. Panel after that we see the trio right after flying through the planet. The last panel we are shown Tech Jacket, Allen, Battle Beast, and the rest of the Viltrumites with drawn "trails" behind them! Showing that they fly around the planet and intercept the faster than light trio to the other side of the planet instantly! All the while still fighting and throwing blows on each other!!!! Combat speed, faster than light combat speed.
Thragg blitzes Thaddeus, Invincible, and Allen faster than they can react. Background shows lightspeed as stars in space around them wash out into streaks.
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As stated by Nolan the Viltrumite forces are lured close to Earth. Mark states next to Eve that the battle can reach Earth, meaning time frame of minuets to dozen minuets at most the speed of fighting reach where they are to Earth. Allen states the Viltrumites are hiding in the suns path to Thraggs forces eyes. Remaining unseen. Then charging in. In this un disclose location near earth and clearly far away from the sun itself, Mark and Thragg battle each other the to suns surface in no time flat. All this in 23 page battle. Clearly FTL fighting speeds.
No reason Nolan cannot pull the same feat unless you suggest Vision is moon level or higher which is nonsense.
Based on what? lol. Vision has very consistently physically fought people well beyond Moon level. I mean, I just posted scans of him ragdolling Thor and smacking back Immortal Hulk, lol.
Here's Vision matching Wonder Man's strength:
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(Avengers Vol. 1 #158)
Someone who rocked a planet to the core by clashing with someone before being shoved through it by them:
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(Avengers Annual Vol. 1 #16)
Wonder Man was often paired as a rival/equal to Vision physically, and that was way back and multiple outdated forms ago.
Actual combat speed feats used in the FTL category.
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The super power villain Cho was so fast that he can land 100s of punches in what appeared to be 1 punch. Even when Robot slowed footage down by x100, the villain was still appearing as a multi image. Robot states this is close to Viltrumite Combat Speed.
You kind of shot yourself in the foot with this.
So the BEST combat speed Viltrumite's can scale to is only close to one hundred punches in a single strike? My man, for one, Quicksilver laughs at the idea of only throwing a hundred punches:
Quicksilver can throw ten thousand punches in one strike:
(Avengers Unlimited Infinity Comic #16)
So here's how Vision has handled Quicksilver's speed in comics:
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(Avengers Vol. 1 #75 / 398)
Also here's Vision in his current form stomping this speedster:
(Uncanny Avengers Vol. 2 #5)
Same speedster who could statue Quicksilver earlier:
(Uncanny Avengers Vol. 2 #3)
I'm pretty convinced at this point there isn't any sort of significant speed advantage here.
Thragg blitzes Thaddeus, Invincible, and Allen faster than they can react. Background shows lightspeed as stars in space around them wash out into streaks.
Omni-Man is also there. How does Omni-Man getting blitzed help for arguing for his speed here? This isn't Vision VS Thragg, lol.
The above was really your only relevant feats, I don't consider characters reacting to stuff while traveling FTL to be consistent when they're throwing hands.
I mean, if you *do* want to do that, there's billions of comic characters that can do so, particularly one from Marvel that Vision scales to:
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Thor (been constantly tagged by Vision) tracks and follows Ego travelling in hyperspace
Bill (Thor level) fights Surfer (travel speed faster than any Viltrumite, also tagged by Vision) while they're travelling and MFTL speeds
Also, what would Omni-Man even do if Vision goes max density? Even Immortal Hulk's hits get no-sold in that state:
(Avengers Vol. 1 #685)
You're not about to argue Omni-Man hits harder than Immortal Hulk.
IH only killed Vision when he struck at the instance he reached his lowest density, something Hulk only knew to do because IM Hulk actually has genius level intellect and knowledge of Vision's abilities, but Vision isn't going to be doing it in this fight at all since his phasing is restricted.
At max density, he can still use his solar energy beams in that state and just spam it or release an AoE like I showed:
(Avengers AI #1)
As I mentioned, it's several times hotter than the surface of the sun, and we've seen how that works out for Viltrumites:
Vision's solar energy is 3x hotter than what flayed the skin off Thragg, someone above Omni-Man, and that's when Vision isn't even trying, what do you think will happen to Omni-Man with max intensity solar heat?
Vision gets blitz to hell.
With what, 100 punches per strike? Again, that's not even in Quicksilver's ballpark.
Based on what? lol. Vision has very consistently physically fought people well beyond Moon level. I mean, I just posted scans of him ragdolling Thor and smacking back Immortal Hulk, lol.Smacking back Immortal Hulk more impressive than Omni Man and Mark smacking back and around Supreme and Solar Man? Tanking blows from Dominex? One shotting the full power of Omnipotus? Flying through a world denser than earth and possibly even stars thanks to Kirkmen written recent episode S2:E6?
You kind of shot yourself in the foot with this.
So the BEST combat speed Viltrumite's can scale to is only close to one hundred punches in a single strike? My man, for one, Quicksilver laughs at the idea of only throwing a hundred punches:
100 punches with Robot slowing down speed 100 times. I did not shoot myself in the foot here lol.
Quicksilver can throw ten thousand punches in one strike:
Thats still way slower than multiple times speed of light reflexes and reactions as well bull rushing attacks? So who cares?
So here's how Vision has handled Quicksilver's speed in comics:
Quicksilver is not even lightspeed with a single feat of chasing Radiowaves when amped on Terrigen Mist crap IIRC. So..
Omni-Man is also there. How does Omni-Man getting blitzed help for arguing for his speed here? This isn't Vision VS Thragg, lol.
Omni Man has reacted to Thragg blitzes and fought Thragg to some degree multiple times. Also in that scan Invincible and Omni Man were already heavily damage and weaken. Thragg was not.
The above was really your only relevant feats, I don't consider characters reacting to stuff while traveling FTL to be consistent when they're throwing hands.
Too bad their reflexes state otherwise, and you showing the super INCONSISTENT Quicksilver tagged by street leveler X-men all the time throwing 1000 punches speak volumes of the bias you have here.At least Invincible characters have the excuse to hold back their speed when they need or want too.
Otherwise they will as stated for fact damage the planet.
Something the show written by Kirkmen shows.
I mean, if you *do* want to do that, there's billions of comic characters that can do so, particularly one from Marvel that Vision scales to:
Thor (been constantly tagged by Vision) tracks and follows Ego travelling in hyperspace
Bill (Thor level) fights Surfer (travel speed faster than any Viltrumite, also tagged by Vision) while they're travelling and MFTL speeds
None of these characters have stated reactions and reflexes or even time dilation effects with their travel speed. Also none of these characters really use super speed for attacks consistently or at all. Two strikes. In turn since the first comics of Invincible...
Mark was already moving 1/7 Speed of light in attacks (Earth to Moon Feat) and his Father was casually too fast to see as he blitz the battlefield one area to another. This shit is just common in Invincible 160 comic run vs Visions 1000s of comic appearances. Hmmm...........
Also, what would Omni-Man even do if Vision goes max density? Even Immortal Hulk's hits get no-sold in that state:
You're not about to argue Omni-Man hits harder than Immortal Hulk.
Nope but in that state Vision is not moving super speed or doing much at all. You do realize Omni man dealt with Intangible people before and other hax powers? He can easy figure to wait for Vision to go less dense and attack when we see Vision actually move around at decent speeds. Vision rarely goes that dense otherwise he never get beat up in the many fights he been in.
IH only killed Vision when he struck at the instance he reached his lowest density, something Hulk only knew to do because IM Hulk actually has genius level intellect and knowledge of Vision's abilities, but Vision isn't going to be doing it in this fight at all since his phasing is restricted.
Bingo. Omni Man can do the same and with far superior bullrush speeds would do so.
At max density, he can still use his solar energy beams in that state and just spam it or release an AoE like I showed:
As I mentioned, it's several times hotter than the surface of the sun, and we've seen how that works out for Viltrumites:
Vision's solar energy is 3x hotter than what flayed the skin off Thragg, someone above Omni-Man, and that's when Vision isn't even trying, what do you think will happen to Omni-Man with max intensity solar heat?
He was never incinerated by the sun.
No incineration here from Liefelds sun temperature Beta Beams.
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Mark tanks heat that vaporizes all solid matter (Concrete, Glass, Steel, ect) of the entire Vegas City. No scorch marks.
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Thragg and Mark tank the corona sphere (second hottest part of the sun) and the Solar Flare ejections from inside the sun multiple times before their skin start melting from smart atoms destabilizing.
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Characters vastly weaker in durability to Viltrumites like Tech Jacket armor wearers can sit on our sun for months with zero damage.
With what, 100 punches per strike? Again, that's not even in Quicksilver's ballpark.
Sigh again 100 strikes in a time frame of Robots super slow mo video slowed down 100 times more, and there is no reason the villain could not land more punches, 100 punches was enough.
Again I posted and proven several times Viltrumites reflexes and combat speed equals the speed they want to move at, in this case many times ftl.
Quicksilver is not even close to speed of light with one feat at that speed and its tainted feat at that.
Unlike Quicksilver or 90% Marvel Heroes Invincible has consistent speed feats in the Skybound comics and Official Bios.
Based on what? lol. Vision has very consistently physically fought people well beyond Moon level. I mean, I just posted scans of him ragdolling Thor and smacking back Immortal Hulk, lol.Smacking back Immortal Hulk more impressive than Omni Man and Mark smacking back and around Supreme and Solar Man? Tanking blows from Dominex? One shotting the full power of Omnipotus? Flying through a world denser than earth and possibly even stars thanks to Kirkmen written recent episode S2:E6?
Are you suggesting any of those people you listed are above Immortal Hulk?
100 punches with Robot slowing down speed 100 times. I did not shoot myself in the foot here lol.
You did though, lol. That would bump them up to around Quicksilver's own speed feat but not only has Vision never had issues with Quicksilver but he fodderized someone who could statue him. So if the best combat speed you have for them is Quicksilver-level then it's still no issue at all.
Quicksilver is not even lightspeed with a single feat of chasing Radiowaves when amped on Terrigen Mist crap IIRC. So..
The example I showed of Quicksilver getting statued by that other speedster Vision fodderized IS Pietro post all his speed amps though. You ignored that part, what’s your explanation there?
Omni Man has reacted to Thragg blitzes and fought Thragg to some degree multiple times. Also in that scan Invincible and Omni Man were already heavily damage and weaken. Thragg was not.
That makes absolutely no sense. You’re saying Omni-Man fighting Thragg is an impressive speed showing and your evidence for that is Thragg has blitzed Omni-Man. Do you not see how that is so obviously circular logic? lol.
If you’re now backpedaling and saying that Omni-Man was weak at the time then that invalidates the feat.
Too bad their reflexes state otherwise, and you showing the super INCONSISTENT Quicksilver tagged by street leveler X-men all the time throwing 1000 punches speak volumes of the bias you have here.At least Invincible characters have the excuse to hold back their speed when they need or want too.
FTL reflex examples is not the same as combat speed as in how fast you can throw a punch. Your only evidence for this is that one statement.
Otherwise they will as stated for fact damage the planet.
Something the show written by Kirkmen shows.
All of that is in regards to flight. Even in space, not even once, do you see them throw super speed punches it's all just bullrushes or reacting while flying which is something Thor/Surfer can do, as I showed:
Surfer can travel 500,000 lightyears in an instant, there's no reason he'd be going his slowest when c.
None of these characters have stated reactions and reflexes or even time dilation effects with their travel speed.
Why are you lying?
In the Surfer/Beta Ray Bill instance you clearly see the stars warped in the background:
What do you think is happening to the stars in the background? How could you even begin to pretend like there isn't any time effects going on here?
As for the Thor and Captain Marvel scans, it doesn't need to show any effects, the speed is directly mentioned. The Thor scan literally says they're travelling at hyperspace while the Captain Marvel one explitcly stated lightyears had been crossed as she fought Firelord starting from Earth:
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Again, what is the point in either lying or ignoring my scans like this?
If you want another even more specific example, here's Kid Nova travelling to different galaxies:
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And it's even explitcly stated how his helmet augments his reaction time so that he can dodge/react to things while flying at those MFTL speeds:
(Avengers vs. X-Men: Infinite #1)
Now, here’s Iron Man casually reacting to Kid Nova:
(A Year of Marvels; June Infinite Comic #1)
Here’s Kid Nova being tagged again (mid-flight too assuming flight was the issue), and it’s even Vision here doing it, lmao:
(Vision Vol. 2 #11)
Like I said, reacting to objects while flying FTL isn’t special, it’s just what a lot of the characters with FTL flight do because it's pretty much necessary for their travel to make sense yet this rarely ever translates to their normal combat speed. You can’t produce a single supposedly FTL instance of combat speed while they’re also not travelling, it's pretty clear Omni-Man isn't any different in this regard.
Also none of these characters really use super speed for attacks consistently or at all. Two strikes. In turn since the first comics of Invincible...
You haven't shown one for Omni-Man. Just scaling and flight. Even the scan you posted of him supposedly "appearing when needed" absolutely just sounds like he's flying to spots really fast, nothing was stated about the speed of his punches.
Mark was already moving 1/7 Speed of light in attacks (Earth to Moon Feat) and his Father was casually too fast to see as he blitz the battlefield one area to another. This shit is just common in Invincible 160 comic run vs Visions 1000s of comic appearances. Hmmm...........
.....The scan I posted of Captain Marvel fighting Firelord from earth to literal light years away in a single panel is laughably above that.
Nope but in that state Vision is not moving super speed or doing much at all.You do realize Omni man dealt with Intangible people before and other hax powers? He can easy figure to wait for Vision to go less dense and attack when we see Vision actually move around at decent speeds. Vision rarely goes that dense otherwise he never get beat up in the many fights he been in.
Intangibility isn't even allowed in this thread. I mean, if it were this would be a stomp in Vision's favor.
I didn’t just use Quicksilver and of the other examples was from someone who statued Quicksilver but you’re pretending I didn’t post that instance for some reason.
Bingo. Omni Man can do the same and with far superior bullrush speeds would do so.
Did you just read half the text there or something? I very clearly say Vision would never do that here since he can’t go intangible, there would never be a reason to lower his density below its base in this scenario. I don’t know why you’re acting like this isn’t extremely beneficial for Omni-Man, Vision would drop Omni with phasing long before he figures out how his powers work if it wasn’t restricted.
He was never incinerated by the sun.
I never said he was. You ignore parts of my argument then make up ones I never did, it's like you're arguing with ghosts or something.
This right here pretty much disproves your own point. It states they can endure surface star level heat but above that and it starts to destabilize. I just pointed out Vision's laser is 3x the surface at its lower levels, and he can spam these beams 24/7 as long as the sun is out, how does this not look bad for Omni-Man? lol
Thragg and Mark tank the corona sphere (second hottest part of the sun) and the Solar Flare ejections from inside the sun multiple times before their skin start melting from smart atoms destabilizing.
Where is it stated that it's the corona?
Characters vastly weaker in durability to Viltrumites like Tech Jacket armor wearers can sit on our sun for months with zero damage.
I mean, you JUST posted a scan that confirms Viltrutmites unique physiology becomes destabilized above sun level temperatures. Just because a character is stronger doesn't mean they have all their heat resistance feats transferred over especially since, again, you just proved yourself their upper limit is surface level star heat, lol
Sigh again 100 strikes in a time frame of Robots super slow mo video slowed down 100 times more
Once again, 100 x 100 is 10,000 which is just Quicksilver level. It's not an issue at all lol.
and there is no reason the villain could not land more punches, 100 punches was enough.
That is pure speculation, lol.
Quicksilver is not even close to speed of light with one feat at that speed and its tainted feat at that.
You clearly don't read any comics with Quicksilver. Here's a picosecond/lightning statue feat:
(Avengers Vol. 1 #688)
He still has even more too.
Unlike Quicksilver or 90% Marvel Heroes Invincible has consistent speed feats in the Skybound comics and Official Bios.
Not once have you shown Omni-Man throw a punch at superspeed, it's only been scaling, and all his FTL reaction feats are during travel. That 100% sounds like Marvel and DC characters, lol.
@wastelandman: Also, if we go by high-ends, Vision has briefly incapacitated Umar.
Really, what issue did that happen?
Remember Giant-Size Avengers#4? It was there:
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Despite being interested in both characters I somehow glossed over this instance entirely. I forgot how much Dorms looks like a child's drawing in that art too, lol.
Confirmed by her guidebook entry:
But again, there's always a chance that there might be a mistake from the guidebook. As we discussed in the other thread, it's not 100% trustworthy.
It actually tracks with what we see in the scans. If Umar wasn't incapacitated she would have done something Wanda. It's a great showing but I feel like it's kind of bs for that to work on Umar when phasing doesn't even work on Strange (except when he was weakened). It's worth noting but I'd file it on the higher end of his feats.
@wastelandman: Despite being interesting in both characters I somehow glossed over this instance entirely. I forgot how much Dorms looks like a child's drawing in that art, lol.
It's art from the 70's, lol. The penciler is Don Heck, who actually did a lot of drawing back then. Not that I'm really a big fan of his works, though.
It actually tracks with what we see in the scans. If Umar wasn't incapacitated she would have done something Wanda. It's a great showing but I feel like it's kind of bs for that to work on Umar when phasing doesn't even work on Strange (except when he was weakened). It's worth noting but I'd file it on the higher end of his feats.
We see Umar on the next page alongside Wanda, Vision, Agatha and Dormammu. So if she was indeed incapacitated, then it was very brief as the guidebook says. Regardless, yea, I think it's a high-end.
Are you suggesting any of those people you listed are above Immortal Hulk?
Supreme, Dominex, and Solar Man? Absolutely. They have actual star and blackhole feats of strength and durability. Suprema alone can mend edges of the universe and lift the weight of all matter in the universe with her full strength for a very short time as high ends alone. She was beaten to near death in seconds by Mean Supreme whome Omni Man stomps. I mean if we want to play the freaking Scaling game, Omni Man has the proverbial bigger "stick" in scaling to Vision vs Immortal Hulk or Umar. So...
You did though, lol. That would bump them up to around Quicksilver's own speed feat but not only has Vision never had issues with Quicksilver but he fodderized someone who could statue him. So if the best combat speed you have for them is Quicksilver-level then it's still no issue at all.
Funny all your counter is base on Marvel comics inconsistent feats and many writers written Quciksilver and scaling to o quicksilver. How about feats from Vision stating or showing lightspeed+ reactions and combat speed. How about we start there.
The example I showed of Quicksilver getting statued by that other speedster Vision fodderized IS Pietro post all his speed amps though. You ignored that part, what’s your explanation there?
Thats easy plot. Nothing new with marvel and its hundred of writers writing characters at different levels.
Anyone should know this! The person who'd win in a fight is the person that the scriptwriter wants to win!" He gives the example of Spider-Man fighting the Thing, and says "if I want Spider-Man to win, he'll win; if I want the Thing to win, he'll win." - Stan Lee
If all you have is scaling to Quicksilver design to plot per plot, then you dont have much there.
That makes absolutely no sense. You’re saying Omni-Man fighting Thragg is an impressive speed showing and your evidence for that is Thragg has blitzed Omni-Man. Do you not see how that is so obviously circular logic? lol.
We see Omni Man put up to the speed multiple times with Thragg. Thragg is superior but its not by a huge degree.
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#102
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#138
So whats your point here?
If you’re now backpedaling and saying that Omni-Man was weak at the time then that invalidates the feat.
Im not sure what your talking about now? How I showed he is weak? Weaker than thragg? Yes. It is by a large margin? No. Clearly not. Like comparing Spider Man to Carnage.
FTL reflex examples is not the same as combat speed as in how fast you can throw a punch. Your only evidence for this is that one statement.
They are throwing punches while moving at light speeds in multiple examples. You want to ignore this that fine. Even if you ignore this a simple moon busting bullrush will kill Vision faster than he can react anyway. Regardless of Marvel inconsistent and shitty plot/writer base scaling vs Hulk, Umar, whoever you can bring up.
Why are you lying?
In the Surfer/Beta Ray Bill instance you clearly see the stars warped in the background:
No shit, I never said they didnt have great travel speed. the issue is reaction speed where Invincible characters are STATED and SHOWN to have with their travel speed unlike Marvel examples you showed. Why are you lying?
Again, what is the point in either lying or ignoring my scans like this?
If you want another even more specific example, here's Kid Nova travelling to different galaxies:
And it's even explitcly stated how his helmet augments his reaction time so that he can dodge/react to things while flying at those MFTL speeds:
Now, here’s Iron Man casually reacting to Kid Nova:
Here’s Kid Nova being tagged again (mid-flight too assuming flight was the issue), and it’s even Vision here doing it, lmao:
Like I said, reacting to objects while flying FTL isn’t special, it’s just what a lot of the characters with FTL flight do because it's pretty much necessary for their travel to make sense yet this rarely ever translates to their normal combat speed. You can’t produce a single supposedly FTL instance of combat speed while they’re also not travelling, it's pretty clear Omni-Man isn't any different in this regard.
Show me Kid Nova fighting at lightspeeds. I showed this for Viltrumites using stated lightspeed attacks. I see Kid Nova moving in attack in the same time for non speedsters people to talk the speed of sound lol. Cmon man. Kid Nova does not fight at light speed.
Viltrumites and characters they blits do fight at massive hypersonic to ftl.
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The super power villain Cho was so fast that he can land 100s of punches in what appeared to be 1 punch. Even when Robot slowed footage down by x100, the villain was still appearing as a multi image. Robot states this is close to Viltrumite Combat Speed.
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Mark BFRs at massive hypersonic speeds a tough foe into space before they can react. Mark was also very young and much much slower at this time. way before he worked out to increase his speed.
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Invincible again speed blitzes in 26 second time frame a enemy from middle to Chicago to middle of Antarctica. Over 1000 machs in speed. This was also done by the slowest version of Invincible who just got his powers and learning to fly.
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Outrun travels from LA to Utah, easily runs across the Atlantic ocean in minutes, she also goes from upstate NY to Iowa while carrying two members of Wolf-man's team then runs back casually. All the while making jokes, talking strategy, and moving her hands to accomplish tasks.
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Robot casually reacts to Outrun every battle they been in, showing ability to react and attack before she can do anything to avoid it.
Bulletproof intercepts a stated laser after it was fired at a Atlantean.
Bulletproof leaving a blur trail behind him as he takes out Flaxan fighter jets that stand still in the air compared to him.
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Bulletproof showing reaction speed and accuracy as he rapid fires teleport darts into a city of people. Leaving blur trails behind him.
In a true showing of speed, in seconds Bulletproof blurs around his dirt apartment, and cleans it spotless.
Bulletproof speed blitzes Mauler Twin with after image fist and blur speeds.
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Viltrumite War Mark moves so fast, that he is able to switch clothes with his evil Doppler, and shave his head in the time it takes another Viltrumite to walk through a door. Showing speed and the ability to think at those speeds.
Mark in a few panels packs up all his things and moves them into a new room across the city. Showing more reaction and navigational ability at speeds so fast, that his friend held a conversation with him on the phone while mark was packing and flying things over faster than sound could travel by a factor many times over. This is physically using his hands at the same insane speeds as he travels.
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Pre Work Out Invincible and Omni Man playing baseball by throwing it at high speeds around the world, and Invincible forgets about it, remembers, and catches it even though it is tiny and traveling at insane speeds to get around the world. Physically reacting and catching it with hands. As well pitching it at super sped to get the ball to travel so damn fast to begin with. Nolan pitching which crosses the diameter of the Earth (12,742 km) in approximately 18 seconds in the Amazon show of the same feat… 12742/18 = 707.888888889 km/s or Mach 2064. Some calcs put this at Mach 5000. All above Mach 10.
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Post Work Out Mark and the Viltumite throw punches, and fight across the planet faster than world satellite network could follow, each Sattelite footage slowed down still being seven minuets behind the action. Instant teleportation stated by Cecil was no good cause they moved to fast to be there when anyone step out. The only time the duo was physically seen by news and sats was when Mark stopped fighting as Oliver stated in the scans.
Invincible states his father in the Flaxan fight was so fast that he seem to appear where he was needed. Way to fast for Marks senses at the time. Mark was already massively hypersonic in speed by feats.
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Invincible can fly from top of America to Alaska in seconds at full speed, and her again Mark moving at full speed in this chase across a planet surface. Yet, Omni Man own speed and search locates, reacts, and attacks the Viltrumite Lucas who was chasing his son at top speeds with no issues.
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Post Work Out Mark and Conquest moving at speeds far faster than Kid Omni Man could take a breath of air. Battling from earth surface to space and back again all the while throwing punches.
Jacket who gets wrecked by Viltrumites is stated able to fight at lightning speed.
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Red Rush main foe shoots 60,000 MPH lightning attacks. Attack Red Rush dance around. Then physically ties up the foe before he notices.
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Red Rush has one of the fastest reaction and combat times in the comic. As seen he can hold a conversation with his girlfriend while running over Russia saving people and beating villains. Red Rush was so fast his girlfriend never notice he was moving at all to save the day at first. In the Guardians lair, Omni man speed wise blitzes all the Guardians including the speedy Red Rush, and Immortal who also has super speed could not even see Omni-Man do it.
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A version of Mark who is very slow to Omni Man speeds gets punch to Earth, and then flies at near lightspeeds to Allen, and then slamming him to the moon. Showing the reaction and combat speed to target a tiny figure like Allen in vastness of space and then steering him to the moon. In the animated show this flight took several seconds. In episode two this takes 6 seconds total from satellite orbit distance to the moon. In comic he starts in Earth's atmosphere straight to the moon. A speed of bullrush attacks at super speed.
Jacket casually dodges and reacts to laser grid. Also stated is Jacket must target small targets on the lasers to stop them from firing. Finally stated is that to dodge the lasers and hit the targets, Jacket has to let go of his senses and let the Jacket make the shots, and dodge the lasers. As a blur the Jacket dodges the blasts and hits the targets.
As seen in the Null fight, the again weaker version of jacket was shooting stated lasers, and Null dance around them while Jacket kept up and banter with the super being. The lasers are in slow motion to both of them in comparison.
Racer stated he could somewhat keep track of the battle across the planet at rapid rates between Battle Beast and Thragg. As both Thragg and Beast threw hands across the planet surface, Racer could not keep up what was going on in the fight even though he has proven FTL reaction feats already.
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Supreme characters are stated Nano Second reaction time. Mean Supreme is flat out able to fight at lightspeed.
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Omni Man matches speed and blow for blow Mean Supreme.
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As stated the planets are moving so fast they are blurs. Moving FTL speeds across the galaxy. Viltrumites many light years away locked on to this ship, and bull rush it. The ship tries to change course at FTL speeds, and the Viltrumites simply reacted and follow the course change. Ramming the ship. The escape ship in the last scan proves the ship that was destroyed never slowed in FTL speeds since Mark notice the escape ship was moving faster then the original ship. A clear FTL reaction and attack feat.
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Viltrumite War Mark in a clear showing of on panel lightspeed, is able to keep up with the Laser, Thaddeus, and Omni-Man. A showing of reaction and combat speed as Mark is smiling to his father as his father helps pull him closer.
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As seen clearly, panel by panel, Tech Jacket, Allen, Battle Beast, and all the Viltrumites start in orbit on one side of the planet. Mark, Thaddeus, and Nolan faster than light punch through the planet next panel. Panel after that we see the trio right after flying through the planet. The last panel we are shown Tech Jacket, Allen, Battle Beast, and the rest of the Viltrumites with drawn "trails" behind them! Showing that they fly around the planet and intercept the faster than light trio to the other side of the planet instantly! All the while still fighting and throwing blows on each other!!!! Combat speed, faster than light combat speed.
Thragg blitzes Thaddeus, Invincible, and Allen faster than they can react. Background shows lightspeed as stars in space around them wash out into streaks.
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Thragg is faster Invincible flying in space at top speed. Then casually reacts to Omni-Man trying to bull rush him at his top travel speed, commenting on Omni-Man's speed. Reacting and attacking.
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As stated by Nolan the Viltrumite forces are lured close to Earth. Mark states next to Eve that the battle can reach Earth, meaning time frame of minuets to dozen minuets at most the speed of fighting reach where they are to Earth. Allen states the Viltrumites are hiding in the suns path to Thraggs forces eyes. Remaining unseen. Then charging in. In this un disclose location near earth and clearly far away from the sun itself, Mark and Thragg battle each other the to suns surface in no time flat. All this in 23 page battle. Clearly FTL fighting speeds.
Wow its also like lin mere 200 freaking comics its consistent too, unlike you character who "maybe or maybe not" using actual super speed in 1000s of comics here or there. Characters written by hundreds of writers vs the one writer of Invincible and Tech Jacket.
You haven't shown one for Omni-Man. Just scaling and flight. Even the scan you posted of him supposedly "appearing when needed" absolutely just sounds like he's flying to spots really fast, nothing was stated about the speed of his punches.
Sure even if you want to say he cant throw punches really fast (Asinine and absurd as shit) then you see how fast he can move and react as needed. Thanks for accepting that.
Intangibility isn't even allowed in this thread. I mean, if it were this would be a stomp in Vision's favor.
Did you just read half the text there or something? I very clearly say Vision would never do that here since he can’t go intangible, there would never be a reason to lower his density below its base in this scenario. I don’t know why you’re acting like this isn’t extremely beneficial for Omni-Man, Vision would drop Omni with phasing long before he figures out how his powers work if it wasn’t restricted.
Intangibility is countered all the time by foes who should lose to it vs Vision so not a issue. So no bother to me.
I didn’t just use Quicksilver and of the other examples was from someone who statued Quicksilver but you’re pretending I didn’t post that instance for some reason.
Quicksilver is a rare occurrence and somehow countered speed wise by tons of non speedsters and even street levelers like Wolverine. Big whoop. Quicksilver gets his ass kick by non speedster X-men all the time since the 70s and was getting his ass kicked in X-Force comics all through 80s and 90s by non speedsters. Not impressed.
I never said he was. You ignore parts of my argument then make up ones I never did, it's like you're arguing with ghosts or something.
Mixing up threads when posting to Dailybagel and you at the same time that day. My bad.
This right here pretty much disproves your own point. It states they can endure surface star level heat but above that and it starts to destabilize. I just pointed out Vision's laser is 3x the surface at its lower levels, and he can spam these beams 24/7 as long as the sun is out, how does this not look bad for Omni-Man? lol
Sigh.......
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No incineration here from Liefelds star temperature Beta Beams. Beams that incinerate 1000s of tons of matter and super durable villains in one shot.
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Mark tanks heat that vaporizes all solid matter (Concrete, Glass, Steel, ect) of the entire Vegas City. 1000s of times greater heat levels than surface of the sun.No scorch marks.
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Characters vastly weaker in durability to Viltrumites like Tech Jacket armor wearers can sit on our sun for months with zero damage.
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Thragg and Mark tank the corona sphere (second hottest part of the sun) and the Solar Flare ejections from inside the sun multiple times before their skin start melting from smart atoms destabilizing.Thats the issue, it takes TIME for the atoms to destabilize. Is Omni Man going to stand there and let himself have a steady beam blast a hole in them? Thats an interesting fairy tale dream on how Vision wins.
Where is it stated that it's the corona?
OMG really?! If they reach the sun surface that meant they past the corona Sphere Unharmed.
That was a dumb question and you damn well know it. Stop playing ignorant, I know damn well you are smarter than that. Dont waste my time here with that nonsense.
Once again, 100 x 100 is 10,000 which is just Quicksilver level. It's not an issue at all lol.
Since video speeds differed from frames per second, we dont know the exact math. Since Robot has tech that blows away anything in real life time and again, the fastest recording is 1 million frames per second for a video at the moment I can find, and if you slow that down 100 times more to get way higher numbers. Still we can assume its quicksilver level Im fine with that as it doesnt change the fact Omni man UNLIKE quicksilver can do this to planet in comics and animation written by Kirkmen himself.
Allen is stated to attain light speed near planets, but reaching such speeds would damage the planet, so he does not. Able to wreck planets on speed alone. Proben when the Kirkmen written Episode 2 of Invincible show this with Omni Man.
That is pure speculation, lol.
So is your whole scaling as proof of Visions speed arguments base on writer and plot. At Least Omni Man and Viltrumnites HAVE speed feats.
You clearly don't read any comics with Quicksilver. Here's a picosecond/lightning statue feat:
(Avengers Vol. 1 #688)
He still has even more too.
I read the comics and like any Flash vs Quicksilver debate or even Sonic vs Quicksilver debate the asshat Pietro is not lightspeed or close too it. Ever. He has a few outliers with 1000 comic book appearances, thats at best. And I showed far superior MFTL speed reactions and travel feats, consistently at that from less than 200 comic run, to what you can show for QS anyway. Whoopie doo.....
Not once have you shown Omni-Man throw a punch at superspeed, it's only been scaling, and all his FTL reaction feats are during travel. That 100% sounds like Marvel and DC characters, lol.
I showed other Viltrumites doing it. You suggest Omni man a Viltrumite cannot do what Thragg, Mark, ect Viltrumites can do? Thats a great argument....
Omni-Man couldn't even blitz Quicksilver, lol.
Wasteland, you are so dreaming on this one. Stop wanking a mid tier Vision hero to high tier Omni Man. This is a mismatch and should be locked.
So these people can one-shot Thor and break his skull in a punch according to you? Stop pretending.
It seems like you're trying to lean on this type of outlier scaling. Unlike your scaling, I can consistently show the characters Vision is scaling to at the levels I'm arguing. Hulk has a multitude of planetary feats (in the same comic I'm scaling Vision to), many of the FTL characters Vision has fought have a multitude of tagging stuff FTL, etc.
You're being super goofy if you're trying to suggest any of these characters are consistently universal/star level. That's the difference between our scaling.
But I mean, if you want to do that, it'd be infinitely worse, and your scaling would lose 100% of the time. Why you think Invincible would scale better this way is so beyond me. Do you not know how over-the-top and cartoonish Marvel's feats can get?
They have actual star and blackhole feats of strength and durability.
Here's Classic Hulk/Red Hulk performing black hole feats:
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Immortal Hulk >>>>>>> them.
Suprema alone can mend edges of the universe and lift the weight of all matter in the universe with her full strength for a very short time as high ends alone. She was beaten to near death in seconds by Mean Supreme whome Omni Man stomps.
Neat. Here's Hulk busting a dimension:
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Here's Hulk punching through time itself:
Busting >>>> lifting.
All these feats were done by versions much weaker than IM Hulk too.
Wow, I guess Omni-Man does so much worse than I thought, thanks to this goofy scaling.
I mean if we want to play the freaking Scaling game, Omni Man has the proverbial bigger "stick" in scaling to Vision vs Immortal Hulk or Umar. So...
Even with that scaling, nothing you posted is even above Umar who is multi-dimensional at her best, what are you talking about? Do you even know who Umar is?
Funny all your counter is base on Marvel comics inconsistent feats and many writers written Quciksilver and scaling to o quicksilver. How about feats from Vision stating or showing lightspeed+ reactions and combat speed. How about we start there.
If you paid attention, I already posted showings of Vision having FTL processing speed:
As for combat speed, he doesn't need FTL combat speed nor have I ever argued that, that's what *you're* arguing for Omni-Man for some reason, and you haven't shown one example from him without scaling outside travel feats which is something mid-tiers from Marvel can do, so who cares?
Thats easy plot. Nothing new with marvel and its hundred of writers writing characters at different levels.
Anyone should know this! The person who'd win in a fight is the person that the scriptwriter wants to win!" He gives the example of Spider-Man fighting the Thing, and says "if I want Spider-Man to win, he'll win; if I want the Thing to win, he'll win." - Stan Lee
If all you have is scaling to Quicksilver design to plot per plot, then you dont have much there.
I can just dismiss everything you've ever shown as "plot," that's a super weak argument.
Also, not only is Vision's computer speed emphasized, but he has never once had any issues with speedsters of all speeds/tiers:
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If he's embarrassed every speedster he's ever faced every single time it's happened for decades straight then it's not "plot" it's called consistency, lol.
We see Omni Man put up to the speed multiple times with Thragg. Thragg is superior but its not by a huge degree.
So whats your point here?
You can't scale the feat of Thragg blitzing Omni-Man as a speed feat for Omni-Man it's circular scaling.
I spell this out so plainly in every post, how are you this bad at understanding?
They are throwing punches while moving at light speeds in multiple examples. You want to ignore this that fine. Even if you ignore this a simple moon busting bullrush will kill Vision faster than he can react anyway. Regardless of Marvel inconsistent and shitty plot/writer base scaling vs Hulk, Umar, whoever you can bring up.
People are fighting and throwing attacks in every example I posted from Marvel that Vision scales to.
How are you constantly ignoring this fact, are the images not loading on your computer or something? I'll post them again:
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I could post plenty more than that as well.
No shit, I never said they didnt have great travel speed. the issue is reaction speed where Invincible characters are STATED and SHOWN to have with their travel speed unlike Marvel examples you showed. Why are you lying?
How you're incapable of processing what's happening is a scan is so weird to me, it's like you're not even looking at the scan.
Stop for a second and you tell me what do you think is happening in this scan with Surfer/Beta Ray Bill:
If it's not obvious to you for some reason, let me tell you what's happening: Surfer and Bill are not just traveling at FTL speeds they are fighting at those speeds at he same time. You see them reacting and exchanging attacks while they are flying FTL in the same way Invincible characters are.
How does this fly over your head so badly?
Show me Kid Nova fighting at lightspeeds. I showed this for Viltrumites using stated lightspeed attacks. I see Kid Nova moving in attack in the same time for non speedsters people to talk the speed of sound lol. Cmon man. Kid Nova does not fight at light speed.
If you want fighting, here's the same scans I posted a million times:
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First scan, Surfer/Bill exchange attacks while flying ftl, warp effect in background. Second scan, Captain Marvel and Firelord are flew ftl from earth to space (mentioned at top) while fighting, you even see Firelord swing an attack with CM dodging.
Wow its also like lin mere 200 freaking comics its consistent too, unlike you character who "maybe or maybe not" using actual super speed in 1000s of comics here or there. Characters written by hundreds of writers vs the one writer of Invincible and Tech Jacket.
Your argument is that they fight at FTL speeds, specifically too fast for Vision, and every single one of those scans are travel and combat feats that can easily be replicated by people Vision has fought. The RT is pointless and proves none of that.
Sure even if you want to say he cant throw punches really fast (Asinine and absurd as shit) then you see how fast he can move and react as needed. Thanks for accepting that.
Strawman. He appeared "when needed" to Mark at the time. Show me early Mark have nanosecond reaction time, I'm sure has so many that isn't just him flying in space really fast.
Intangibility is countered all the time by foes who should lose to it vs Vision so not a issue. So no bother to me.
Bruh.
This just proves to me you're not even reading what I posted. This sentence has nothing to do with what it's responding to. I just said intangibility isn't even allowed here, how does then responding by saying intangibility is an easy counter, as if I argued itrit being used here, make ANY sense as a response?
What is the purpose in even responding if you're not even looking at what I'm posting?
Quicksilver is a rare occurrence and somehow countered speed wise by tons of non speedsters and even street levelers like Wolverine. Big whoop. Quicksilver gets his ass kick by non speedster X-men all the time since the 70s and was getting his ass kicked in X-Force comics all through 80s and 90s by non speedsters. Not impressed.
I like how you brought up the context that QS had recent amps only to completely ignore that fact right now to downplay him and say he lost in the 70s- 90s, lol.
Like I said multiple times before, the speedster that statued QS that Vision stomped was in a modern comic and post QS's best amps:
(Uncanny Avengers Vol. 2 #3)
That excuse doesn't work.
Sigh.......
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No incineration here from Liefelds star temperature Beta Beams. Beams that incinerate 1000s of tons of matter and super durable villains in one shot.
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Mark tanks heat that vaporizes all solid matter (Concrete, Glass, Steel, ect) of the entire Vegas City. 1000s of times greater heat levels than surface of the sun.No scorch marks.
Your scan states it's plasma that causes the destabilizing effect, where is it stated his beam is the same type of plasma from a star? But even if it is, newer showings take precedent and so this instance is directly contradicted by what's showing in the comic and your own scans:
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Characters vastly weaker in durability to Viltrumites like Tech Jacket armor wearers can sit on our sun for months with zero damage.
I already addressed this, and you ignored it, like you do half my arguments. I'll just copy and paste:
I mean, you JUST posted a scan that confirms Viltrutmites unique physiology becomes destabilized above sun level temperatures. Just because a character is stronger doesn't mean they have all their heat resistance feats transferred over especially since, again, you just proved yourself their upper limit is surface level star heat, lol
Again: actually read my posts and don't ignore it.
Thats the issue, it takes TIME for the atoms to destabilize. Is Omni Man going to stand there and let himself have a steady beam blast a hole in them? Thats an interesting fairy tale dream on how Vision wins.
It just took *one* dip and their skin was gone:
Vision's AoE could rep that easy and he can spam it 24/7 if he wants:
(Avengers AI #1)
OMG really?! If they reach the sun surface that meant they past the corona Sphere Unharmed.
That was a dumb question and you damn well know it. Stop playing ignorant, I know damn well you are smarter than that. Dont waste my time here with that nonsense.
They're clearly being damaged by the surface of the sun, you see it on panel, lol:
And your own scan says they can only withstand surface level heat:
The idea they could survive the corona's heat is directly contradicted and nowhere is it stated they ever made contact in the comic, this is just wishful thinking on your part. You're also pretending like this is a super accurate representation of a sun when it's factually not, this is the type of sun you would see depicted in cartoons tbh, with that silly liquid magma effect, lmao.
Since video speeds differed from frames per second, we dont know the exact math. Since Robot has tech that blows away anything in real life time and again, the fastest recording is 1 million frames per second for a video at the moment I can find, and if you slow that down 100 times more to get way higher numbers. Still we can assume its quicksilver level Im fine with that as it doesnt change the fact Omni man UNLIKE quicksilver can do this to planet in comics and animation written by Kirkmen himself.
Allen is stated to attain light speed near planets, but reaching such speeds would damage the planet, so he does not. Able to wreck planets on speed alone. Proben when the Kirkmen written Episode 2 of Invincible show this with Omni Man.
Again, that's done with travel speed. Him flying FTL does *not* say anything about how fast he can throw his punch. I already said this.
So is your whole scaling as proof of Visions speed arguments base on writer and plot. At Least Omni Man and Viltrumnites HAVE speed feats.
Scaling is not speculation, lmao. You're just saying "no u" and hoping it makes sense when it doesn't.
I read the comics and like any Flash vs Quicksilver debate or even Sonic vs Quicksilver debate the asshat Pietro is not lightspeed or close too it. Ever. He has a few outliers with 1000 comic book appearances, thats at best.
If you read the comics then why did you say he only has only one light speed feat when he very factually does not? lol
And I showed far superior MFTL speed reactions and travel feats, consistently at that from less than 200 comic run, to what you can show for QS anyway. Whoopie doo.....
Travel speed is irrelevant and reacting to stuff flying while FTL, for the millionth time, is something that Captain Marvel, Thor, Beta Ray Bill, and many of others have, done. I agree, it's not a big deal.
I showed other Viltrumites doing it. You suggest Omni man a Viltrumite cannot do what Thragg, Mark, ect Viltrumites can do? Thats a great argument....
No you haven't, lol. You showed me Viltrumites tagging stuff while flying really fast (another million times: same as something Captain Marvel, Thor, Beta Ray Bill, etc).
Wasteland, you are so dreaming on this one. Stop wanking a mid tier Vision hero to high tier Omni Man. This is a mismatch and should be locked.
I mean, if we use your fan-fic Omni-Man, then yeah, this is definitely a mismatch, lol.
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