Witch-King & Sauron vs Smaug & Balrog

- ROUND 1 movie versions ROUND 2 book versions

- Standard equipment, Sauron has the ring, this is Durin's Bane balrog

- No prep, battle take place on Pelennor fields, who wins and why?

Sauron solos. C'mon...

How?

@bigcimmerian: Sauron with the ring stomps through entire armies.

Smaug gets killed by a harpoon.

Witch King gets slain by a human sword.

Balrog is the only real threat here, but is not as powerful as Sauron.

Sauron solos this with ease, he's basically a god

Sauron doesn't solo, but Sauron vs the two of them would be a good fight in my opinion.

Round 1 goes to team 2. Smaug is massive, and sauron's flicking soldiers around isn't much of help..

Round 2 to team 1. Sauron ftw.

Smaug & Balrog wins both rounds. Dragons were already strong as maia. So we can say ; there are two maia against one. Even for Sauron, it is impossible.

No, he is a maia, like Balrog. But only Gothmog (not orc, greatest Balrog and leader of them) was the equal of Sauron as maia in Melkor's rank.

@princearagorn1: What is Smaug going to do to Sauron?? Barbeque him? He is a Maia, not some dude in armor.

...movies essentially made him a dude in armor...

where exactly did they go into details of sauron's race?

Sauron lost the fight against f****ing giant dog, and when he had the ring Elendil and Gil Galad were holding their own against him. You don't defeat god by cutting off his finger. He's powerful, but not like the people make him to be.

Sauron's army lost the battle when Sauron had the one ring. I didn't see him solo entire army. Smaug on the other hand wiped out Erebor and Dale.

Dragons aren't as strong as Maiar, nowhere near. Sauron is one of the most prominent, and is basically a city buster+

The only reason he was defeated was because of a), constraints placed by Eru, and b) because he decided to put all his power into a ring. He's naturally a city buster+, though

Do you know that, other 3 istari, like Radagast and any Balrog is a maia ? So you think Dragons are not strong like them ?

And Smaug isn't city buster?

@bigcimmerian: Maybe a town buster...

Yeah, and no, they aren't. It seems like they are, but Maiar have restraints put upon them so as not to eff things over too much - for example, Gandalf could, at any time, just bust open the gates of Mordor and solo all of Sauron's army by himself, but that is "against the rules". Last time Maiar had a proper, no-holds-barred fight, they took out an entire continent, hence why they have to be constrained like that.

NOPE.. there is only one god in middle earth.

And which city Sauron busted? :D

Yeah, I know, Eru

Hence, "basically", same way the Spectre or Living Tribunal might be considered gods.

As in, they have great power

Sauron is even far away to be considered gods in middle earth. hes more like a fallen angel.. the Valars are the perfect examples of being considered gods..

The haradrims worship sauron as a god though.

Yeah, compared to your average human, he's godlike

But yeah, there are those much stronger than him

Smaug and Balrog can fuck up Witch King, but Smaug and Balrog vs Sauron, that is difficult to answer

Team 2.

I'd say Sauron and the Witch-king of Angmar, because how do they kill a spirit of an incredible level of power? Smaug and the Balrog are really powerful, but Gandalf ( the Grey) took out the Balrog, even tho I think the Balrog was stronger, Sauron is much stronger than Gandalf, or anyone in the verse at the time ( besides Eru). The With-king is confusing because it's hard to tell if he's immortal or not, but I feel like his death was just plot shit, and was generally immortal, tho he may still be the weakest in this battle. But either way, it doesn't matter cause Sauron should carry ftw.

The Witch King died from magic blades created by Númenóreans intended to upend his immortality. Top grade First age and to a lesser extent Second age weapons were potent enough to harm Ainur level beings so they are to be respected.

As for the battle I agree he would take it adding the witch king almost turns it into a stomp in Sauron's favor.

Round 1: In the films, Sauron, who is probably intended to be in a far lesser state at Dol Goldur (it's probably difficult to say if he would be in Legendarium/Tolkienian terms, his native power in the seen and unseen realms may be relatively unmarred at this point, despite lacking physical form) easily defeats Gandalf the Grey. TWK, whose stature is presumably heightened at this time due to his proximity to his master (who should also be greater by this time) destroys Gandalf the White and no longer seems dismayed by fire. The Balrog, who was essentially dead even with Gandalf the Grey, should lose to both.

But if we assume Sauron was directly embuing TWK with power there due to the proximity, then it becomes trickier. If TWK is just that powerful he'll certainly beat Durin's Bane, if it's reliant on Sauron's direct intervention, then we have no reason to believe he would.

The outlier is Smaug, he has far greater independent feats of raw power, strength etc. than anyone here. On a gut level, in-verse, I do expect any of these three (assuming TWK's power is "his own") would be depicted as besting him, but it's difficult to say with certainty without taking cues from the books.

So it really depends how you choose to think about the fight. In a variety of ways.

Round 2: In the books, Sauron is less a vehicle of great might in the strictly personal/physical sense. It's quite difficult to pin down how he would compare to Durin's Bane. TWK is utterly out of his depth though. I can't recall any reason he would have a chance against either of Team 2 so they should win this regardless of how you choose to break down Sauron's power in a straight up battle. I can't see him defeating both.

R1: Sauron the necromancer (massively weakened) is superior to Gandalf the grey (post/pre-prime), who in turn is a rough equal/superior to Balrog and implied superior to Smaug (the necromancer is also outright stated to be > Smaug). The Witch King oneshotted Gandalf the White, who's superior to post-prime gandalf the grey. In other words both Witch King and Sauron are massively superior to balrog/smaug individually. While soloing might seem unlikely, especially for Witch King, T2 has no chance at all of winning against the team

R2: Sauron the Necromancer is still stated a greater threat than Smaug, Gandalf the grey while post-prime is still stated capable of beating Smaug (and this by the dwarfs, who only know him as a wizard not of his true power). Gandalf the Grey while post-prime still stalemated the Balrog. And the chain of Sauron > Gandalf the White > Gandalf the grey (prime) > gandalf the grey (post-prime) still is true. The Witch King is also implied a match of Gandalf the White. Same as R1, neither of T1 will solo, but in combination they win clearly.

Agree with all this.

And Sauron was said, if he were to reclaim the ring and return to his peak, to be capable of plunging Middle-Earth into darkness- the same was never said of Smaug, who was a huge threat but not deemed a 'game over' scenario.

As stated, Gandalf the Grey >/ the Balrog of Moria, and Sauron outranks Gandalf the White. The Witch King is Gandalf's superior in the film and I would say slightly below in the book (strong enough to face Gandalf, yet it was also stated by Gandalf the White himself that he was the second greatest power in Middle-Earth).

Either way, team 1 should take it.

With the ring Sauron solos all 3 of them with mid- difficulty.

Reasons: Gandalf the white said that even with the one ring he doubted he could defeat Sauron, the same Gandalf who as Gandalf the grey, AKA a weaker version, stalemated and beat durins bane after a few weeks.

Adding in the witch king who was at least briefly able to hold off glorfindel who has killed a balrog before seals team 1s victory.

Also Smaug isn’t a large factor because of the witch kings mount or Saurons magic.

R1 Balrog is a weakling (for both rounds), but Smaug could potentially solo via staying in air and breathing fire

R2 Sauron solos

Team 1 for both I imagine

Yeah your right, it was a while since I've seen that part.

@rogueshadow: So you think 1 in round 1 and 2 in round 2?