Debunking The Mace Windu ~ Ventress Scale

There are two fights that people have used to lowball Mace Windu all the way down to Ventress level, and it's time to change that. Most of the content in this thread will be Legends material and will include spoilers for many Star Wars Comics, Novels, and other forms of media.

People have tried using this quote to lowball Mace Windu all the way down to Sub-Ventress, while ignoring the actual fights themselves.

"Mace Windu had to use all his skills to defeat the dark side fighter Asajj Ventress."

- Star Wars Fact File 108

From what we know they have fought twice in Star Wars lore.

First Fight:

Let's analyze the fight here:

First scan: They clash blades once.

Second Scan: Mace states that they aren't equals, to which Ventress agrees.

Third Scan: Ventress runs away.

This isn't exactly what I would call "using all your skills to beat someone".

Second Fight:

Let's Analyze This Fight:

First Scan: They engage in a duel as normal with one fighter charging the other.

Second Scan: They clash blades once, and Ventress admits that she's channeling her rage into something useful, which can be interpreted many ways.

Third Scan: They continue clashing, but the deck shifts, which separates the two.

Fourth/Fifth Scan: Ventress runs away.

Again, this doesn't exactly look like "using all your skills to beat someone."

Final Verdict

Neither of Mace's duels show him genuinely struggling to beat Ventress or that Ventress has parity with him.

Call-outs to those who might be interested

@eredin12@frozen@mr-yes@wolfrazer@greysentinel365@the_wspanialy@maulsmacker@heiqn@reaperace@killbilly@dreamer016 @therevaniter

Apologies to those I missed

@redsithdisciple: Nice work man, Ventress level Windu is nonsense.

@redsithdisciple: do people seriously try to argue Ventress-level Windu? I’ve never seen that before, that’s wild.

This too. Never seen that either

Nice work

@mr-yes: Appreciate it

@a_fine_edition: Not a lot on this site particularily but I saw several people across the internet going around Mace threads and videos saying stuff like "Mace struggled with Ventress the other guy stomps." In fact I actually debated one guy who tried using that quote months ago on CV but he deleted his posts.

i have never seen people scale her to that level but i have seen people underrate ventress to a significant degree. i think there’s a nice middle ground where she isn’t fodder to him and is capable of contending with him without actually being his equal.

@eredin12: Thanks

@emmafrostxmen: The quote isn't really used to upscale Ventress as much as it's used to downscale Mace.

Should've explained how strong Ventress actually is instead of doing this.

@famousroman: This thread isn't just focused on the Ventress fight.

Never really knew this was any issue, never saw Mace as Ventress tier or Ventress in anywhere near Mace tier. I always saw her floating around more like Obi-Wan....ish...kind of placement.

@wolfrazer: So did I but I have seen people downplay Mace to Ventress tier which is the main reason I made this thread.

She fought him twice. It would be wise to get into that, no?

@famousroman: I featured both fights in this thread. But this is about Mace's power level, not Ventress's. I also did an analysis of both fights if you want to read through the post.

The “all his skills” quote I more or less interpret as him just going all out. Ventress scales over Bulq who actually gave Windu trouble.

The better counter for this is to actually read the Fact File which states Mace was heavily distressed mentally by Bulqs betrayal and likely not on point.

As for the second fight, there really is no excuse for Windu here. Especially since if you delve into the extended lore they’re actually fighting on a powerful Light Side Nexus. If Mace were really so far above Asajj that should not have been a fight. It should also be noted that Ventress is considered the greatest threat bar Dooku in the clone wars and Mace was stymied by GG using only two sabers while he had his mobility restricted. Later Mace concedes that only Kenobi can beat him. With the RotS Visual Guide backing that up. So yeah it’s a bad showing for Mace, but people also downplay Legends Ventress a lot.

The Mace/Sids stuff is a coin flip. There’s equal sources for and against.

Would also suggest people check out this thread for more debunking of Mace downplay

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/emperordmb/blog/mace-windus-lightsaber-duels-analysis-thread/127977/

Pretty much what he said ^^^. Ventress is actually really high up on the PT totem pole, people just don't understand that.

@greysentinel365:

The “all his skills” quote I more or less interpret as him just going all out. Ventress scales over Bulq who actually gave Windu trouble.

I'm doubtful of that. Skill is a measurement of mastery and technique rather than seriousness in a fight like how you seem to be interpreting it.

The better counter for this is to actually read the Fact File which states Mace was heavily distressed mentally by Bulqs betrayal and likely not on point.

Didn't see this part. Thanks for the info.

As for the second fight, there really is no excuse for Windu here. Especially since if you delve into the extended lore they’re actually fighting on a powerful Light Side Nexus. If Mace were really so far above Asajj that should have been a fight.

I'm aware of the Jedi Temple being a light-side nexus. But when you add in the other fight on neutral ground in which it panned out more or less the same way you can't use the Jedi Temple being a nexus as an excuse for Mace not struggling with her.

It should also be noted that Ventress is considered the greatest threat bar Dooku in the clone wars and Mace was stymied GG only two sabers GG while he had mobility restricted.

Quote for this? This is nothing but a contradiction to more or less every other piece of source material. A barely trained Grievous already defeated both Ventress and Durge in a 1v2 and then we have Grievous being stated to be "more powerful" than Ventress.

"He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist."

- Yoda: Dark Rendevous

___

Later Mace concedes that only Kenobi can beat him.

This was because Grievous was able to semi-mimic Vaapad, which made Mace fear dueling Grievous. We know from the 2003 Clone Wars that Mace is more than capable of one-shotting Grievous with the force, and since Grievous dodged the exact same attack earlier on from 3 other Jedi there's really nothing that can be said to downplay this.

With the RotS Visual Guide backing that up. So yeah it’s a bad showing for Mace, but people also downplay Legends Ventress a lot.

Not really. Most have her at Obi-Wan level, which is fair when you consider their fights throughout the series and comics.

@redsithdisciple: is there any sources or statements that confirm mace really beat sidious if so can you post them?

Legends or canon

@ieatnettle legends

Sorry don't have any for legends