Do You Think This Changes The Top/God Tier Speed Meta in YOUR Eyes for JJK?

Gojo straight up says having a 0.000001 reaction time and also add cursed energy to his strike is literally no problem for him (meaning his reaction time is probably far faster) and he could literally do it everytime if that was the case. Meaning this is basically casual asf for him/people in his speed tier. Does this change your opinion about the speed "argument" in jjk or no? i'm curious.

Yes, this changed my view. This also means Kyoto Goodwill Arc Yuji was already ridiculously fast.

Baseline black flash swing from 1 meter is mach 2915.45

Insane. I hope they keep it consistent.

to be fair it's consistent for the top dogs like gojo and sukuna, keeping in mind yuji couldn't do it at will. But it puts into question less of the high ends for the god tiers IMO. But also i think the top tiers (special grade sorcerers and those specifically on their level) would somewhat scale to/below this.

Bump

Nice speed jump, and it's definitely better than what Mach 3 curse Naoya has.

@masterbuster666: hopefully this can stop the blatant lowball despite ALL the feats the verse has because of 1/2 statements. But still I doubt that because we still have people denying ftl OP

Should the newer JJk speed feats be valid considering Gege admitted to making a mistake with the Mach 3 stuff

@supreme101: lmao why you tag that here

@ecoblitz: Jus thought I could add to the "meta"

@supreme101: oh, fair enough. Can you link this there so they can be connected/go both ways?

@ecoblitz: Sure

No top tiers are still mach 3

@darkphantom9895: why? Despite every single feat shown after that statement why are they still mach 3 to you?

Not really. I think the series' established speed scaling is not that high. It's not just about Naoya either.

Choso's Piercing Blood (transonic)was barely avoidable to Yujiwhen he was stated to be at the level of a grade 1 sorcerer and this was purely physical as he could only do CE reinforcement at the time.

Naoya as a Special Grade 1 was said to be Subsonic+, Mach 1 as a Cursed Womb and Mach 3 as an Awakened Cursed Womb. And his whole deal as a Special Grade Curse was mostly just reaching top speed and tossing into people.

Gojo barely killed 1000 disfigured humans within 5 minutes while he was in a confined space and everyone was motionless.

Yuji was said to be able to run at 60 km/h at the beginning of the series and Megumi couldn't catch him even though he was a Grade 2 sorcerer at the time.

Maki catching a revolver bullet was said to be "a bit too much" by Gege then he said, "Well, I'm sure it will be fine." (Searched for a while but couldn't find the image. However, I'm sure I saw it.)

The series is pretty down-to-earth in general too. If cursed energy weren't required, the modern military would be able to take care of most curses. And modern weaponry was effective against sorcerers as Kenjaku mentioned. Even if they are clearly stronger I don't think it would be reasonable for guys like Sukuna and Gojo to be so above the rest of the cast (in terms of stats) that it is insignificant how many there are and what role they play. I mean Choso is Grade 1 and he still contributes to the Sukuna fight. Same with Larue, Kusakabe and Miguel. Choso's attacks also posed a threat to Kenjaku and made him use his original technique. Sukuna is obviously not operating at 100% but even then he has as much cursed energy as Yuta.

_____

The light-speed arguments come from the black hole and EMW feats AFAIK.

The first feat is a pretty big outlier in general because not only is it far faster than any feat up to that point, but it was also a Planetary feat which Kenjaku negated with only cursed technique.

I don't even know what to say to the other one. I checked back and there is no clear-cut attack with EMW, much less one that Sukuna evades. Unless I'm missing something I don't think this is even a speed feat.

There is no way they apply cursed energy after pulling their fist back an entire meter. This implies nothing about the speed of a black flash punch.

OT: This killed one of the most popular arguments for JJK reaction speed capping below microsecond level. Very nice statement for reaction speed.

@nwname: yeah I feel like this is only relevant for top/god tiers tho.

Doesn’t make sense that he would be nearly 1000x faster than Toji

@ajak_xv: toji tier people are literally fodder to Gojo tier

Also how did you get to 1000x

@ecoblitz: someone saying gojo is nearly mach 3000. Toji is Mach 3. Also Toji isn’t fodder to gojo stats wise.

@ajak_xv: toji is Toji is not mach 3… maki is literally faster than hakari and he reacted to lightning multiple times.

What limits Toji's reactions to 0.001s?

Not normal lightning tho

@ecoblitz:

Irrelevant to my point. Grade 1 has levels to it just like special grade and grade 2 have levels to it. Kusakabe would cook that yuuji and they're both "grade 1 level" Also yeah, past the speed of sound... you know, the same thing that was said about prime netero yet only 1 verse gets to be lowballed and other should ignore the statments but focus on feats for one and only focus on statements for the other.

Kusakabe was also hyped up and said to be the strongest Grade 1 even though he didn't have a technique. I also don't know how it's irrelevant to your point as I'm talking about the established speed level of the verse. Yuji might be on the weaker side of Grade 1 at the Shibuya Arc however this doesn't change the fact that his physical aspects are Grade 1 level as Mei Mei doesn't have a reason to throw meaningless compliments.

As for the HxH one, doesn't have much to do with the topic especially since we are talking JJK exclusively here. How other debaters scale other verses doesn't have anything to do with me. Been years since I finished the anime and never started the manga so I can't make a definitive comment on whether I support the general scaling or not anyway.

Wym as a special grade 1? that's just general grade 1 but not part of the school. Oh also, i just found out that apparently gege wanted to draw naoya surpassing the sound barrier before but couldn't do it until the maki/cursed naoya fight (don't ask me why lol)

I mean depending on his reason, this doesn't do much. He might have thought that it would have been too much or any other reason. If you gave this as trivia, then I appreciate it.

He was already faster than sound as a cursed womb. Maki herself said so.

Yes and no. I checked it and Maki says he was already Supersonic as a womb but then she gets ready for him to come at SoS?

In a different translation, it also mentions SoS a couple of pages later. Oh well, I think it's reasonable he is Transonic/Supersonic as a womb. Doesn't change much either way.

this is true. But maki was not some top/god tier in the verse then. High tier for sure.

I mean even after fully realizing herself she still didn't outright blitz Naoya. She said everything was telling her how Naoya was gonna move and used the uneven parts of air as a foothold. Then she one-shot him with a surprise attack. She is most likely faster than Naoya even when he is at top speed but nothing indicates her speed outclassed Naoya to the point of making his speed insignificant.

Has nothing to do with combat speed, has to deal with travel speed. He has to differentiate between transfigured and regular humans while actively trying not to hurt any normal human and like i said, this is travel speed, not combat speed.

There is usually a difference between travel, combat and reaction speed but said difference is not that big in JJK. Itadori barely blocks PBfrom a fair distance away. If you are gonna say he wasn't prepared for it (which he wasn't yes) here he is making a gamble on which side he should dodge when, again, there is quite a bit of distance. His face gets cut still. Now even if we assume that Itadori's max speed was 60 km/h there is roughly 20 times the speed difference between SoS. Let's say 30 times (well into Supersonic) the speed difference since PB surpasses SoS. There are comfortably 5-10 meters between them. While PB covers that distance Itadori can barely dodge the attack and even that is by luck since he predetermined the side he was gonna lean to. Sorcerers are superhuman with CE reinforcement. Even if you don't give them too much of a speed boost the difference between their reaction and travel speed can't be too different because the speedster that blitzes them is Subsonic.

Now on to Gojo, you say it like he has to show effort to distinguish them. They have extra body parts, their stature is different, some of them walk on fours, and they have unnatural skin colors (in the anime at least, don't know if there is an official coloring of them in the manga) not to mention we're talking about the guy with Six Eyes here. And he was ripping them apart with his hands, normal humans won't get caught up in them.

Yeah if anything it's the opposite that was said. And please feel free to post your sources when you find it.

How is it opposite exactly? And I searched for a while for the note/trivia or whatever it is but couldn't find it. Feel free to believe it or not of course.

the average special grade spirit can be taken out by grade 1 sorcerer, a special grade sorcerers can take down a country single handedly, gojo being said to power a country(like the USA as the person who said it was talking to the president of the USA and was the energy minister) by himself so they'd be easily above whatever feats metric you set for them/the series(Since we're taking all statements at face value in jjk and ignoring feats).

And what is the average Special Grade Curse? There are many types of curses. Todo was said to have killed an SG Curse however we were never told much less shown how he did it. He could also hurt Hanami who was the most durable among Disaster Curses.

Powering the US is not as impressive as it might seem tbh. All Gojo needs to do is produce nearly 1 kiloton of TNT equivalent of energy in one hour to power the country's electricity. For someone who can dish out much more energy with one attack in a couple of seconds, this isn't something impressive. Not to mention this is Gojo, the most energy-efficient and top-of-the-verse guy. As I said "pretty down to earth in general" and Gojo is not part of the majority here.

Now the last part is just unnecessary. Your logic is the same is it not? It was described that Yuki was creating a black hole and we assumed so. We were told Kashimo was using EMW and we assumed so. The narrator says PB is Mach speed/Supersonic and we assume so. It was said ACW Naoya is Mach 3 so we assume so. Contrary to what you may think the statements aren't only in my argument. Some of them give you the number directly meanwhile others give it to you indirectly.

Yeah... the average run of the mill sorcerer... you know, not who my post is addressing, the top/god tiers.

Yeah... As I wasn't addressing Kenjaku and the likes either... Since I was talking about the verse in general.

A much much much much weakned sukuna than gojo was dogging for most of the fight is literally running laps around the cast of special grade and grade 1 sorcerers left right an center, Sukuna while drastically weakened is beating the rest of the verse up in real time from rank 3 and below. And gojo was 1v1'ing this man at his peak and winning for the most part.

He couldn't use his DE and RCT. He didn't even need the latter for a time as he refreshed his body. Also, they didn't jump him all at once. Most of the time Sukuna made it into a 1v1 by hitting and running other sorcerers and dealing with them one by one. He also came extremely close to death several times. He would have been dead if Itadori landed the sword, Maki cut his head, Megumi complied or his CT was taken. These 2 are also originally in their own tier.

Grade 1 sorcerer hakari is having a drawn out fight right now with uraume, someone gojo literally one shotted on panel WITH 1 PUNCH and moved on with his life.

Yes and her/his master also got the same treatment from a BF from the same person. Normal punches were also hurting him. (BF being exponentially stronger than a normal strike is a lack of knowledge on Gege's part. BF is treated more like hitting a crit.)

Kashimo, who hakari beat got one shotted by sukuna (albeit with a durability ignoring attack) after having all except maybe 1 of his attacks dodged. Keep in mind this is after sukuna was near death due to gojo, missing and arm and a leg and having little cursed energy.

Kashimo landed all 3 of his punches when Sukuna hadn't restored his original form. The fight barely took 2 halves of 237 and 238. Kashimo is also a flaw in the speed scaling. First lightning timer stuff then LS came mainly because of him. The scaling I'm against and also the reason you are most likely saying things like "Yeah, let's ignore feats." to me.

Yuta the number 3 in the entire verse AT FULL POWER would have been a burden and was much weaker than a gojo with no domain, low CT and RCT output, spammed domain expansion multiple times in the same day, slower and weaker and more tired than normal. Again, this is the full powered number 3 in the verse being a burden to a tired, no domain having, low ct and low rct having, much weaker than normal gojo.

Gojo quickly recovered all that he lost with Black Flashes. He recovered everything except his DE. Plus their only reason for not going wasn't "We are too weak." Kashimo also stopped them saying it was a battle for the two and they were being cautious in case Sukuna had a trump card up his sleeve. The last attack (and pretty much any attack Gojo uses) would also hit Yuta if he stepped in, that's why he says "Sensei wouldn't be able to do that if I were there." after seeing UHP.

Also, let's not forget Jogo was said to be as strong as 8-9 Finger Sukuna. Even when you add in Kenjaku being generous it was said Jogo would instantly die to the combo Hanami took. Of course, there are differences in level between characters but a character being a no-factor in a battle rarely occurs in JJK. It's not like the classic battle shounen where the next villain destroys the one before in every category.

It literally doesn't matter if you think it's unreasonable. It is literally the reality of the series that gojo and sukuna are so above the rest of the cast in damn near EVERYTHING that despite them being far far weaker than they normally would. NO ONE IN THE VERSE CAN STAND UP TO THEM AT ALL.

On one hand, we have Mach 3, on the other hand, we have light speed. So going off of what you said Maki before her last enlightenment was a High tier right? So are you saying anyone who isn't a top tier is hundreds of thousands of times slower than Sukuna and Gojo?

They are obviously above everyone in the series in terms of stats but the difference isn't necessarily thousands of times. A Silverback Gorilla, for example, is about 10-20 times as strong as the average human. Now we can send Mike Tyson in his prime to fight an average Silverback and he would get one shot with a single attack. Several broken bones at least, death at worst. So Sukuna and Gojo don't need that level of stat difference to be dominant or competent while weakened.

The sukuna that is so weak he has little ct and rct output? who doesn't even have his domain back and is much much weaker than we've probably seen him so far? THAT sukuna? or you're talking of another one?

He still had as much CE as Yuta while he was fighting him. (who guessed Sukuna has more than double his CE so he is around half) This is after he hit a BF. I'm not saying he had a shot at winning or did anything major but he did land sword strikes and gave superficial injuries to Sukuna.

Kusakabe lasted 1 chapter despite having somewhat of an ambush and literally got one shotted the second sukuna was done observing him... Larue is "surviving" solely due to his/her CT and is still badly injured and sukuna was straight up uninterested in them. Miguel is the same, his CT is CARRYING him rn and it's literally a 5v1. Larue is bleeding out the whazo, sukuna is putting people down left right and center and again their CT's are carrying them in a 1v5, not their stats (obviously Maki and Yuuji are the exception) and again i have to reiterrate, THIS SUKUNA IS MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH WEAKER THAN HE NORMALLY IS. He's nothing remotely close to full power.

Ambush? They are standing 2-3 meters away from each other on the same road. This is the very beginning of the fight. Obviously, everyone's CT is carrying them in a verse where CT is everything. Miguel was still dodging Dismantles left and right. 5v1 only came at the end of the chapter and even then Maki could still go for a lethal part of his body but aimed at his arms for some reason. Sukuna realized she had come only after his two hands were cut. Zero explanation is given for Maki's behavior. The only answer is they are trying to save Megumi. You also don't need to write 4 "much"s every time you mention Sukuna is weakened. I get the point but it's not like Sukuna is operating at 1%. Characters around him scale to or higher than 25% of his strength. Maki is Toji right now, Itadori's punches could hurt special grades since way back (Maki and Yuji both contended with 15F Meguna whose CE output was low but the physical movement was fine.) and Choso pushed Kenjaku to use his real CT in a 1v1. Sukuna still operates at a significant fingers' worth of strength.

This is literally irrelevant to speed. He was forced into a position where he HAD NO CHOICE but to use it or he'd take more damage than he should.

It does. Choso fought and put Kenjaku in a position he didn't want to be in. He could have simply pulled out several curses or run between the Supernovas if he was fast enough to do so. Choso's fastest attack was Supersonic so it shouldn't be a problem if you are operating near light speed. Either way, he couldn't finish Choso fast enough and was forced to do something he didn't want to do which indicates a level of relativity.

Yuuji is quite literally a living nerf and sukuna started this fight at less than 40%. If i go with your ce as yuta statement, that him starting the fight with KASHIMO at 33% CE level (probably closer to 25% because yuta said "at least 3x as much cursed energy as me) SUkuna has had multiple fights since one shotting kashimo's farmer ass. So again the entire high/top tier cast of the show minus yuki, hakari and kenjaku are getting dogged physically and overall by one of the weakest sukuna's we've seen outside 1-3 finger sukuna... You're not helping your argument at all.

Yuta said his hunch was twice as much as him or more. Yes, Yuji shakes Sukuna's soul but we don't know how much that weakens him. It cut Sukuna's momentum that he got from several BFs but their main aim was to get Megumi to take control yet he doesn't respond. And as I said before, his opponents are comparable to his several fingers and brought him near death multiple times.

I don't think most people even count the BH feat as a speed one tbh.

I saw a couple of people use it, but I don't know if that's the majority or not.

Um... your argument of "it's an outlier because it's the best feat at that point" is not a good argument. That's how feats are set. They're the best feats because they're the newests ones. That's like saying X character isn't Y because Y is the newest Y there has ever been. But yeah i don't agree with it because it's contradictory and isn't supported by anything outright.

I meant it as in it was too much since it is several quintillion times stronger than the best feat up to that point and is supported by nothing but we are on the same page either way.

Except every attack he used to vap something (like the first attack of his sukuna dodged and called too loud)

He didn't dodge, he took it to the face. I think that attack was a sound wave as described in 237. Especially since he called it loud. I think EMWs are those laser-beam-looking things.

you are.

Instead of saying this you could have explained but I got the gist.

Yes

Toji is FTE to likely peak human level characters over large distances. That alone probably puts him in the double digit mach range