Mace Windu legitimately defeated Darth Sidious (Canon)

Introduction

Since the emergence of "toying" quotes there has been a lot of discussion recently about whether Darth Sidious threw the fight or not, but from what I saw most of those "toying" quotes (which are also disputed) are only dealing with the lightsaber fight itself and not with the latter part during the force lightning exchange. I am gonna talk about both instances and will try my best to explain why I believe that Mace Windu did in fact legitimately defeat Darth Sidious.

Lightsaber duel

I am gonna talk about this one less extensively as evidence is heavily contradicting. But lets go to the beginning of the fight.

The fight starts by Darth Sidious jumping out and killing 3 Jedi Masters (Saesee, Kolar and Fisto) with utter ease but we have sources which claim that they were caught off-guard and by a surprise.

Star Wars Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force explains it further by saying that Darth Sidious applied Dark Haze which seems to cause temporary confusion. This allowed him to quickly take out the weaker Jedi.

But this begs the question of why didn't Darth Sidious simply take out Mace Windu first since he was aware that he was the biggest threat. If Palpatine's plan from the beginning was to set up this fight as a show then surely taking out the most powerful opponent and then "toy" with someone weaker would make way more sense as leaving the most powerful foe could foil his plan. The film itself answers this question.

While every other Jedi looked disorientated Mace Windu was able to react and raise his guard before Darth Sidious even initiated his attack, so we can conclude that the effect of Dark Haze on him was minimum. There is further evidence that not everyone was equally affected as we can see that Fisto was able to block some of Palpatine's strikes which suggests that he was less affected than Kolar and Tiin.

As we can see Fisto is somewhat able to resist its effects as Sidious wasn't able to instantly cut him down like he did so with Kolar and Tiin so its safe to assume that he couldn't have instantly killed Mace Windu who was prepared before he even launched his attack.

Even so, after Fisto is cut down Mace is being pushed back and the duel is stated to be fierce.

The Official Star Wars Fact File (relaunched-2014) explains what happened next. Mace is being pushed back as he was trying to find a still point in himself that would allow the Force to flow. But by the time the duel reached the open area of Chancellor's office it is said that Mace was able to find the inner peace he sought, and once that happens it is stated that Windu is starting to have advantage "Slowly, slowly, Mace Windu began to bear down on Darth Sidious"

Mace Windu seemed to be hindered and out of focus for the early part of the duel which could be explained by the Dark Haze which was mentioned earlier. He was pushed back until he was able to let the force flow and once that happened the duel immediately started to look more even with Mace slowly gaining advantage.

In case you didn't know, toying quotes originate from The Official Star Wars Fact File (which are later copy-pasted into its successor Fanhome Encyclopedia) which is the same source which I have been describing the fight so far. Continuing on, it is stated that at some point during the fight, Palpatine was starting to give the ground. This is where "toying" could have started but it is also stated that Mace was aware of this; "Mace was careful, knowing not to trust that his opponent was truly on the back foot." and "Still Mace was wary. Had the reversal been too simply gained?"

Most of the toying quotes are also from the same source which is as mentioned The Official Star Wars Fact File, and almost all of them attribute only certain parts of duel as toying and not the entirety of it "in anticipation of Anakin Skywalker, Palpatine was willing to allow himself to be disarmed to be more vulnerable" - This quote doesn't contradict that Mace could have been winning until this point (as he is stated to have gained advantage before Palpatine started to give the ground). Palpatine sensed that Anakin was coming and obviously wanted to play the victim card instead of appearing like an aggressor.

I would question this entire source (and latter Fanhome Encyclopedia which has the exact same quotes) as being credible as it has many contradicting parts including the non canon material within (It describes Legends characters and events). While I am not in a possession of its successor Fanhome Enyclopedia I don't doubt that it also has conflicting counts about this fight. Going back to The Official Star Wars Fact File it states that Palpatine was toying, that Mace was aware of this and also this: "Only the intervention of Anakin Skywalker saved Darth Sidious"

This quote is quite opposite of the view that Palpatine was toying, was in total control and had everything planned out. I would take this entire source including the latter Fanhome Encyclopedia (which copy-pasted some of the quotes from the Fact File) as to be unreliable and not to be trusted. In any case if you are to trust this source anyway despite the conflicting accounts, Mace is stated of being aware of being "toyed" with, and the fight itself is portrayed mostly as even.

Other sources which don't have such contradictions portray the conclusion to the fight in a very different way.

Star Wars Geektionary states that Mace Windu turned the duel in his favor and that he was the only one to defeat Darth Sidious in a duel.

Skywalker: A Family at War states that Palpatine was actively resisting "Palpatine was far from meekly accepting his fate." and that his fate was in Mace Windu's hands.

Furthermore after Mace Windu disarms Palpatine, Anakin still isn't there. Sheev is basically alone for roughly 5 seconds and held at the blade point.

Palpatine is not only unarmed during this moment but also shows his back to his opponent which if Mace wished so is essentially a free kill for him. But at this point Mace is still trying to arrest him (something which Palpatine couldn't have been sure about). In other words if Palpatine was "toying" he was gambling massively here whether Windu will try to arrest or instantly kill him. Doesn't sound like he is in a total control here, does it?

There are a lot more sources which are saying that Palpatine was forced into corner, that Windu gained the upper hand and that he was out of control which I won't be posting here as I believe these are sufficient.

CONCLUSION TO THE LIGHTSABER DUEL

Between the majority of reliable sources and the few unreliable The Official Star Wars Fact File and its successor Fanhome Encyclopedia quotes (which directly copy-pasted a lot of its content from the Fact File) its clear that Palpatine was on the losing edge. Even if you choose to believe the unreliable Fact File it states that Mace was aware of "toying" so its not a real "toying" then is it? Furthermore Mace Windu has statements that put him at Yoda and Anakin level in sabers, so its unreasonable to think that Palpatine can easily defeat him here.

Lightning exchange

Now this one is quite clear and undeniable so I am gonna go straight out with this one. Mace Windu overpowered and defeated Darth Sidious who was going all out, and had Anakin not intervened he would have been dead.

The evidence is just overwhelming but first lets start with the moment where Darth Sidious fires his lightning at Mace. Windu is not only blocking but deflecting it back which is a lot harder to do.

In episode IX, Rey who is powered by All the Jedi is only able to block it at first. It takes her some time (roughly 50 seconds) and only starts to deflect it back (which then deforms and kills Palpatine) once Palpatine is overpowered. Mace is able to deflect it back almost instantly in comparison.

Now I know a lot of you would say that Rey fought a much more powerful Darth Sidious but it doesn't matter because Rey was also being powered by All the Jedi. In any case I only used this as an evidence to show that deflecting Force Lightning is much harder than simply blocking it.

Now we come to the question whether Palpatine was holding back with Force Lightning or not. The evidence undeniably says that he indeed went all out. I am going to split this into a few segments:

What evidence is there that Darth Sidious went all out?

1. Statements

2. Disfigurement

3. Sith eyes

1. Statements

Star Wars Annual2015 states that Palpatine was desperate and that Windu used his own strength against him which is a textbook example of being overpowered.

The Prequel Trilogy Stories states that Palpatine was using Force Lightning to try to defeat Master Windu.

2. Disfigurement

Was Palpatine disfigured or not? Current Disney canon is overwhelmingly in favor that he was. First lets read Star Wars Databank description of the Force Lightning itself:

As we can see Star Wars Databank confirms that Force Lightning can indeed cause disfigurement. This begs the question of why wasn't Maul, Dooku or even Luke disfigured? There is an answer for Maul.

Star Wars Absolutely Everything You Need To Know states that Darth Sidious used his force lightning to torture Maul rather than to kill him. Dooku on the other hand we know has much weaker Force Lightning so that might be the reason of why he wasn't deformed in Dark Disciple. For Luke there is no such clear answer only theories. We know that Luke is very powerful and is able to tank ROTJ Palpatine's force lightning for very long time so this might be the reason. Other reason could be that Palpatine was hitting him all over the body and not just face/upper body. In any case a lack of answer doesn't in any way contradict that the Force Lightning is indeed able to cause disfigurement as per Databank.

Another popular theory is if Palpatine is deformed in The Rise of Skywalker, surely that means that it was his "True Form". The answer is that we don't know. There is no official answer to this so we can only theorize about it but not more than that. Once again the lack of answer doesn't contradict the disfigurement.

I saw other arguments such as Son of Dathomir and other comics already show Palpatine being disfigured so that means its his "True Form" all along. Matt Martin was asked about this many times and he always thought that this isn't a contradiction. I have one such scan of a conversation right here.

As we can see Matt Martin doesn't see this as his "True Form" being confirmed but rather calls it "artistic license" and that it looks "too much post-lightning" I don't think we ever saw Darth Sidious already beeing deformed pre ROTS in any LA or animated shows such as TCW so I share Matt's view.

Moving on, I am now gonna show all the different canon scans which say that Darth Sidious disfigured himself with his own lightning. Warning tho, this section is gonna be long.

Star Wars Absolutely Everything You need To Know states that Palpatine was hiding his disfigured appearance in Imperial propaganda broadcasts.

This is further confirmed in The Star Wars Book which calls undeformed version of Palpatine a "propaganda"

Next scans will share the same idea that Darth Sidious was disfigured by his own lightning.

And there are probably more which I have yet to locate. But 13 different scans should be enough to prove without a doubt that Darth Sidious was indeed deformed by his own lightning. Some of these scans like Skywalker a Family at War and Star Wars The Dark Side Pocket Expert came after The Rise of Skywalker so once again his face looking that way is not a contradiction in any way.

If you still somehow don't believe these then the film also gives direct indicators that Palpatine was hurting himself. We can clearly see here a smoke coming from Palpatine which indicate electrical burns.

3. Sith eyes

During the sequence with Darth Sidious firing his force lightning and Mace deflecting it back we can see Palpatine's eyes are changing color from his regular blue ones to yellow and finally red. But what does this mean? Why did they change? First I'll post the screenshots when this happens.

Here we can see his eyes are regular blue color.

Here we can see that his eyes are now becoming yellow.

Until they finally turn red.

Fortunately I have found the evidence which explains why did this happen.

Star Wars Absolutely Everything You Need To Know states that embracing the dark side makes your eyes change the color.

Star Wars: The Visual Encyclopedia goes further and says that rage and anger change the Sith eye color. We know that rage and anger make the Sith more powerful so we can conclude that since Darth Sidious was using these emotions while using Force Lightning on Windu that he was going all out.

Conclusion

While the lightsaber duel itself is somewhat arguable whether Mace won or Sidious threw, I think we can all agree that Mace indeed won as I have already shown here that Palpatine was out of control right after being disarmed (for roughly 5 seconds) and the fact that the "toying" quotes directly originate from The Official Star Wars Fact File (Fanhome Encyclopedia just reused them) not only contradicts itself about this very fight but it also contains Legends characters and events. Furthermore it makes no sense that Palpatine was toying with sabers only to blast Mace with full powered lightning a moment later. If you still choose to believe The Fact File then you must also know that Mace was aware of being "toyed" and that the lightsaber duel was portrayed as mostly equal.

I believe that other more reliable sources which have no such contradictions are better at explaining of what really happened in which case Mace Windu undeniably won in the saber fight.

Regarding the lightning exchange I believe its pretty undeniable at this point and we can conclude after everything I presented that Palpatine went all out and that Mace was able to successfully defend against his strongest attack and injure Palpatine in the process. Now could Palpatine have continued his lightning? Yes. But he would continue to injure himself until he kills himself (which is what happens in episode IX). Besides, Anakin was right there to help him so no point in killing yourself if he could lend his hand.

So there we have it. This took way too long but I think we finally have a clear picture. Mace indeed won and had Anakin not intervened Palpatine would have been dead.

P.S And yes there are about 10 or so quotes which say that Anakin's intervention was indeed required and what saved Palpatine, which I didn't include here because I believe that the post is already long enough. But if someone wishes I can add those later.

Very nice. So Mace is at that pre 66 Sidious tier, but still below the post 66/Mustafar Kenobi/Mustafar Vader/Senate Yoda tier.

This is higher than I previously had him so that is potent.

Thanks. And yes your scaling seems to be correct.

I'm always undecided on this point, but regardless good thread and I'll agree for now

Nice blog

Thanks.

This is a good read, conclusions.

Surely the final nail in the coffin regarding Maces saber performance and how he won their duel is imo the point you bring up about how he's also aware of shady business and potential intentional mistakes from Palps as well. That should make the claim that he was allowed the easy win and was fooled get thrown out the window by most.

And until most recently i've never seen anyone ever argue that Sidious actually wasn't disfigured, so good job having the energy to make a fine post and snuff out that attempt which for some reason even became a thing.

Good post.

They argued that it was Palpatine's "true form" (which he can apparently randomly change during the combat) but as we can see evidence doesn't support it.

Nice work.

Thank you.

Good to see an actual argument now aside from George's somewhat vague quote

@redsithdisciple: People still use George as a source?

@supreme101: For a while the only argument I saw in favor of Mace was George's quote

Yeah I didn't include Lucas or Gillard's quotes as they aren't canon.

Didn't know Star Wars had Confundus Charms!

@frozen: what places MFK and MFV above Sidious and Mace?

“Powerful enough to defeat this Darth Sidious you are not” - Yoda to Kenobi. This is based on Yoda knowing that Mace failed to defeat him, and therefore knows Kenobi has no chance. He then sends Kenobi after Anakin instead. Seems pretty clear cut that Kenobi and Anakin are below Yoda and Sidious and probably Windu too.

@sav0: Mace redeemed! Excellent work.

MFV is stated more powerful than Yoda and he has quotes saying he can overthrow Sidious. Also, no - Yoda’s assessment on Sidious is based on Mace and the B team failing. Yoda thinks that Mace and the B team were beaten, likely without trickery. So he overestimates Sidious.

I’ll copy paste my blog on this.

Obi Wan not being strong enough to ‘face’ Sidious

This is a statement that is used a lot. I think that people very much misinterpret this line of dialogue.

First, let us remind ourselves of the context of this line. We must look at what is said prior:

Yoda: Destroy the Sith we must.

Obi Wan: Send me to kill the Emperor, I will not kill Anakin.

Yoda: To fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not.

Obi Wan: He is like my brother I cannot do it.

Yoda: Twisted by the dark side, young Skywalker has become. The boy you trained, gone he is, consumed by Darth Vader.

Obi Wan: I don't know where The Emperor has sent him. I don't know where to look.

Yoda: Use your feelings, Obi-Wan and find him you will.

Yoda directly tells Obi Wan “to fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not”

Yet the preceding context is their ability to destroy the Sith, I.e. defeat them, not necessarily how well they would do in a given fight. They must be able to defeat them. Hence why Obi Wan says send me to kill the Emperor, to kill him, he must be able to defeat him

From this, it doesn’t necessarily mean Obi Wan will get stomped 10 times out of 10. What it means is that he can’t defeat the emperor. It says nothing as to the difficulty he would have when losing. (Although to be clear, he absolutely would lose every time, due to the force lightning)

To further back up this point, the canon junior novel for ROTS replaces Yoda’s word ‘fight’ with ‘destroy’:

So the line in the movie is “to fight this Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not”

Whereas the line in the junior novel is “to destroythis Lord Sidious, strong enough you are not”

Unlike senior novels, junior novels don’t have to align 100% with the movie’s dialogue. A hyper literal reading of this dialogue would suggest a contradiction. But the preceeding context of Yoda saying they must destroy the Sith frames this as not the case. Yoda isn’t hyper literally saying “you can’t fight Sidious at all”, what he’s saying is that “you can’t defeat him”. So in this context, “fight” is just synonymous with “destroy”

The Fanhome Enclyoepdia backs this up, as Yoda is categorised in the same boat as Obi Wan as being among those who can’t beat him:

”Yoda had earned Obi Wan not powerful enough to face Palpatine. In the end, not was Yoda”

Hyper literally, this wouldn’t make sense. As we know that Yoda did face Sidious, and did well. But the usage of the word ‘fight’ is used interchangeably with the movie wording of ‘face’. When read with the novel, ‘fight’, ‘face’ and ‘destroy’ mean the same thing.

“In the end, nor was Yoda” refers to his inability to defeat the emperor. Even if Yoda did well and could match the emperor, he can’t defeat him:

Yoda can match him, but he cannot actually defeat him. The majority of canon sources actually have Sidious as slightly more powerful.

Per the official databank, he is stated to have overwhelmed a Yoda who is at the height of his power. (Post order 66 Sidious is significantly more powerful than pre 66. This can’t be stated enough):

The dark lord’s superior power is affirmed repeatedly in canon sources (Stories of Jedi and Sith, 2017 Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Read-Along Story Book and CD, SW Annual 2015, Star Wars in 100 scenes, De Agostini Star Wars Encyclopdia: Yoda And Other Users of The Force, Star Wars Character Encyclopaedia, Star Wars: The Prequel Trilogy Stories, Ultimate Star Wars: New Edition, Star Wars: Made Easy, Fanhome Star Wars Encyclopedia: The End of the Clone Wars, Dark Side Pocket Expert and Star Wars Timelines)

Gallery

So Yoda, like Obi Wan, can’t defeat the Emperor. Yoda thought he could, but he was proven wrong. They are both in the category of being unable to beat him. So this line of “strong enough to destroy this Lord Sidious, you are not” would also apply to Yoda. Although it is clear Yoda would do better than Kenobi would against the Emperor.

This begs to question, why was he sent after Anakin then? This comes down to the obvious reason that he’s got familiarity with Anakin. Although they both know one another’s moves, he’s got more of a chance against someone he has familiarity with than an unknown entity. If we take such lines hyper literally, then we end up with Obi Wan > Yoda in duelling, because it’s said he is the “only person skilled enough to capture General Grievous” in the revised visual dictionary.

I think this is a great collation of sources and nice analysis. I like the point about the lightning affecting Palpatine's face instead of it being his true form.

But honestly, all sources aside, just watching the movie on its own just gives me a pretty clear sense that Palpatine is throwing it on purpose. The body language and so on, but more than that, it's obviously Palpatine's plan to have Mace survive long enough so Anakin can see him, and then feel guilty when Mace is killed, because he has no way of going back to the Jedi after being culpable in Mace's murder. It's the whole point of the plot. Palpatine knew this was going to happen, he told Anakin he was a Sith so Anakin would tell the Jedi. What are your thoughts on that part--that regardless of what exists outside of the movie, that the point of this scene was the culmination of Palpatine's plan to turn Anakin, and Palpatine wouldn't plan it this way unless he was sure he could win?

Also, following up on the lightning scarring...Sidious knows that pain leads to power, this could well be his intentional way of leveling himself up, of growth in anger and hatred through physical trauma--not that different from what he's been putting Vader through in the comics, but doing it to himself. So I don't think the fact that the lightning really hurt him is conclusive either way. He's certainly very capable of doing whatever it takes to get what he wants, including sacrifice of his face. But it's an interesting thing to think about either way.

But also, taking other media back into consideration, what about the novelization, which I don't think you included here? Now I know you're qualifying this as a Canon argument, but regardless of when it was published I have a hard time seeing the novels of the book as outside Canon. Wookieepedia does still describe the movie novelizations as Canon regardless of their publication date ("Since then, the only previously published material still considered canon are the six original trilogy/prequel trilogy films, novels (where they align with what is seen on screen)..."). But if you don't (perhaps under the "when they align with what is seen on screen" exception), that's fine and ignore the rest of what I have here. I don't care too much about arguing about what's canon or not. Anyway here are a number of quotes from the novel:

Anakin comes in and sees Windu as he "battled alone, blade to blade, against a living shadow." Soon after, Windu was "half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire." This characterization of Sidious as a Sith shadow continues through the fight. This seems to imply that Sidious is already fully embracing his Sith identity and not just at the end with the eyes.

The narrative has Mace think, "In the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear." This sounds like Windu was in fact winning. And there's a couple more lines about the shadow's fear, backing that up.

Now Palpatine turns back to his more human presentation: "Now the shadow was only Palpatine, old and shunken, thinning hair bleached white by time and care, face lined with exhaustion." Clearly he's putting this on as an act. He switched modes on purpose to gain Anakin's pity. He uses "the broken cadence of a frightened old man."

Mace tries to stick the fear he felt in Palpatine's face: "you lost for the same reason the Sith always lose: defeated by your own fear."

"Fool," Palpatine replies twice, the second time in italics. This is not a random word choice. He clearly sees Mace as a fool, and having beenfooled. Then: "Did you think the fear you feel is mine?" [emphasis in original] Obviously, the point is that it was not. Palpatine had no fear the whole fight, he was tricking Windu.

He shoots the lightning, and was perhaps surprised that Windu managed to reflect it, since "Palpatine staggered, snarling" when hit, but also to my point above, "he fed the power with his pain" when he blasts again. [Following up on the fact that he doesn't care about his face--later he looks at himself in a mirror, shrugs, and just says I shall miss the face of Palpatine, I think."]

Mace calls for Anakin to help him, clearly indicating he needs it. Then he feels again: "Palpatine was not afraid....he wasn't worried at all." Now you could argue that maybe in this case Palpatine wasn't afraid because he knows Anakin is going to help him, not Windu. But that doesn't affect Palpatine's lack of fear earlier, which is what he thought Windu was a fool about. I mean arguably, maybe Sidious felt no fear the whole time because he had forseen all of this with the Force and knew what was going to happen, and so in that approach, maybe Mace beat him fair and square and Sidious was fine with that because he knew Anakin would come in and save him. But that still doesn't really explain the part where Mace is a fool. That only comes with the whole thing being an act.

Now "Palpatine...ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade" back towards his face. So Palpatine wasn't going all out in his initial lightning.

Mace's voice is described as "going thin with strain" and "he had no strength left to fight against his own blade." He says "Anakin, he's too strong for me." [emphasis in original]

But literally immediately after Mace says Palpatine is too strong, Palpatine fakes it more, stopping his lightning out of nowhere and acting like an "old man crumpled to his knees." He makes some obviously fake whimpers about "I am too old, too weak. Don't kill me, Master Jedi. Please. I surrender."

Then they talk some more, Anakin cuts off his hand and Palpatine zaps him out the window.

So to summarize, Mace was tricked into thinking Palpatine was afraid, but he wasn't. Palpatine clearly indicates that he was fooling Windu. Sidious also shifted back and forth between a more shadowy, Sith form (at least as seen through the Force) and his pathetic frail human form as needed to put on his show for Anakin, showing again that he was doing it to con Anakin, and that he was in full embrace of his Sith nature throughout. He may have been surprised that Mace reflected back the lightning, but he wasn't doing it full force at the start, and after, he was winning the lightning/saber battle, bending the blade back toward Windu with Mace saying Palpatine was too strong for him. Then Palpatine only stopped in order to get Anakin to join in.

So from my perspective, it seems pretty clear Windu was never really in control.

@owie:

The senior novels aren’t canon. Stated by SG, and most recently, Hidalgo just explicitly said the senior ROTS is not canon. The junior novels on the other hand, are stated to have been revised to fit into the new canon. So they’re entirely canon.

@owie: regardless of its status in the newer continuity, I think this interpretation works perfectly for the older continuity.

I am afraid all this done is nerf both Mace and Pre66 Sidious and buff Dooku.

@tagsorwhatever: thanks

@frozen:Can you link me to those statements?

And what do you think about the first part, the general plot structure question of "Sidious planned the whole thing so it's unlikely that he made a plan where he was in danger of losing to Windu"?

Not really. Mace isn't on the level of post 66 Sidious, sure, but he's not the complete fodder everyone was saying he was before.

star wars has been reduced to just words and power scaling

Bump.

Great thread, well analyzed

Basically 😂😂

@sav0: so mace is equal to pre 66 sidious in the force but is a better duelist than sidious?

Vader > Windu

Windu > Sidious

Therefore

Vader > Sidious

I thought George Lucas himself said Mace won?

Good thread

Vader absolutely stomps pre 66 sidious