Qui Gon is Maul level in saber combat (disney canon)

Recently I've noticed that many do not seem to consider Qui Gon at the level of Maul. Or rather, they do but only TPM Maul and not TCW Maul. I feel this needs to be addressed - while TCW Maul is better than his TPM self in the force, there is no evidence his saber skill is superior. In fact, there is evidence to suggest he is lesser in sabers in TCW than TPM.

Without further ado, I present you to the evidence that Qui Gon is TCW Maul level in sabers in Disney canon.

The Phantom Menace audii description on Disney Plus states ''Qui Gon drives Maul back into a narrow coridoor''. This is only reinforcing their competitiveness, earlier at time stamp 1:55:46 the descriptions remarks that they ''duel fiercely''.

As we can see, Jinn performs remarkably better in the 1v1 than the 2v1. He drives Maul back, matches his blows in saber clashes and counters his every move. Without the additional Legends context of Maul ''luring Jinn away'', this duel is more closely aligned with Nick Gilliard's vision:

Battling against telegraphing anything, Gillard wrote the fights as real confrontations of near-equals. "This was meant to be like matching Porsche Turbos against each other," he says with a grin.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050304133323/http://starwars.com/episode-i/bts/production/f19980521/index.html

Unlike Legends where Maul "lured" Jinn away, Canon continuity asserts that Qui Gon FORCED him back.so

Of course, one could say that Jinn's high standing in the TPM era does not have much relevance to the TCW era of jedi. This line of thought is directly denied by canon material, for it is Qui Gon who is attributed with giving Obi Wan his skills.

''From Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan gained the skills and the wisdom that would serve him so well as a Jedi and as a military leader during the Clone Wars.''

Source: Age of Republic - Qui-Gon Jinn (2019)

Jinn's parity with the top level Jedi can be seen from his feat of deflecting omni-directional blaster fire from 20-25 guards, all the while carrying the priestess on his back:

For comparisons, see the canon cartoons or Revenge of The Sith, where council level and other high level jedi fail to replicate this feat under similar circumstances:

One may point out that TPM Obi Wan gave Maul a good fight, however the databank notes that Maul was caught "off guard". This means Obi cannot scale to Maul as of TPM. Not to mention he was rage amped.

In summation:

• Canon sources say Jinn drove Maul back and forced him back
• There is little to no evidence suggesting TCW Maul is significantly above his TPM self
• Qui Gon has performed feats which council level ROTS era jedi died to

Awesome analysis. Can you tag me in your canon SW threads?

@frozen: Great work my Friend .

Idk why, but it looked like Maul was fighting consertively and not with relentlessness b/c after all he had two masters and a prodigy to kill in TPM.

I think Qui Gon is far wiser but Maul had more combat training bc he may not have been as strong with the force.. but what do I know

I don’t really think that comparison with Mundi can really say anything given the circumstances there compared to Jinn.

But anyway, didn’t realize this was even a topic of controversy. Jinn always seemed to have some parity with Maul.

Nice work. I consider them to be peers with Qui Gon losing only due to stamina.

Remarkable analysis. You are strong and wise and I am very proud of you. May the force be with you old friend..

@frozen: I think you should put this quote in here:

“After a short but intense duel, Qui-gon narrowly escaped onto the royal starship”(it’s in the 5th picture in https://www.starwars.com/databank/darth-maul-biography-gallery )

Nice work

Nice

likewise

Rolling 8. Above most, but below Maul/Kenobi at prime.

I mean Qui Gon was more in tune with the force than pretty much any other jedi outside of Yoda, naturally that would translate to his force augmentation, precog and general combat prowess. Maul lvl Quin Gon makes sense.

I always disliked comparing comics/cartoons to movie portrayals because you can portray the Jedi as far more superhero-like in the former than in the latter. So comparing Jinn in the comics to Mundi in the movies is always going to be somewhat of a mismatched endeavor.

Nice. Solid and rightful recognition for Qui Gon.

@orangebat: to an extent. you can show high tier against blaster fodder though such as vader hallway and rey in episode 9, especiall yif you hype up the fodder like the imperial guard

Bump.

I always knew Jinn was Jedi master council tier. I mean they invited him before ep.1 took place.

People honestly underate him.

He's heavily underrated. I think a Qui Gon novel releases recently so I need to read it.

Maybe the Disney+ Tales of the Jedi series will hype him up as well.

Fights fairly even albeit ultimately slowly losing a 2v1 against Maul, is killed against him in under a minute solo.

They're even

Next up: Sidious = Vader.

@buildhare: Seems like you missed the point. Gilliard and Lucas have them as near equals.

@frozen:

DOTA, especially more consistent sources say Maul lured him and that he was more skilled and much better than Qui-Gon and could outpace the duo, let alone Qui-Gon himself

Jinn getting clowned in a few seconds in a 1v1 with serious Maul = near equals

@living162637: The actual audio description of the film doesn't describe him as being lured away, it describes Jinn as driving him back and duelling fiercely. So the film itself doesn't subscribe to Maul luring him away.

The person who actually choreographed the fight describes them as near equals. I'll take his interpretation over yours.

@frozen:

Can just be interpreted as Maul letting himself get driven back. Especially when more consistent sources say Maul purposefully separated them and he led them on. The narrative being established is that Maul is letting these elements happen. So a fierce duel doesn’t really mean much. And there’s no higher form of canon, so the “actual audio” means nothing. It’s another form of secondary material

Yeah except his description isn’t canon anymore, and his intent on the characters is lost. The concept of DOTA is that a persons creation and their intent on it is lost. Which would be doubled down because Disney doesn’t have levels of canon anymore. So it’s not his word = law

I WOULD however take the multitude of canon evidence suggesting Maul is much better than Jinn

@living162637:

You can't "let yourself" be driven back. Jinn 'driving Maul back's carries the connotation that is he is forcing Maul on the back foot. To be 'driving' is to be the one in control and pushing with force. If Maul was in control in that moment, then the description would reflect that by noting that he lured him away.

Gilliard's tiering system may no longer be canon, but creator intent is still valid. He crafted the fight sequences, so using him as a source is still valid. If people watch TPM fight and come away thinking that Maul flattened Jinn, Gilliard, the man who choreographed the fight, thinks otherwise. And as I said, I'm not ONLY appealing to him, but rather stating that the film's canon audio description aligns with what Gilliard envisioned -- so the picture that is painted is one closer to the original intent. I'd rather go by the film opposed to what some souecebooks might suggest, the film itself is held in higher regard. Even Disney's tierless canon still recognizes the film as the highest source.

@frozen:

Even if I steelmanned that, it’s simply not as consistent. More than one source confirms Maul lured Qui-Gon away. The more consistent material is to be relied on

Except that still revolves around DOTA, which entails that his intent still exists, but it doesn’t have higher precedence than anyone else’s. It’s not an objective way to view it whatsoever. Someone can come to a different conclusion. And the interview where that was published quite literally goes under pre 2014 content

I also find it odd, because I brought various creator statements, which are actually canon for my Ashoka and Vader blog reflecting the creators implications, and people insisted on their own interpretation of the fight, which unlike mine, didn’t actually have evidence behind it.

The audio description(which isn’t even entirely supportive of it) is simply outweighed by more consistent sources in Disney. And an audio description for a film is not = the film. It’s secondary material describing events of the film. Your stance is contingent off Gillards intent, which isn’t any higher than anyone else’s, and a singular piece of evidence, which isn’t as consistent

I’m not sure how you can argue Jinns parity off literally two sources

Qui Gon died in Saber Combat to Maul . How is he equal in Saber Combat ? Maul didn't bleed or lose limbs .

Nice work, although the concept not exclusive to Canon. In Legends, Jinn is also firmly established as a near-equal to TPM Maul.

@buildhare: @thotheus:Jinn's stamina gave up on him, but at no point was Junn ever outdueled in skill or outmatched in strength, Maul also used his IQ and weapon for advantage.

Jinn, Kenobi and Maul in TPM are equals in skill and power. With Jinn being let down by his stamina. Maul needed an advantagous weapon type, full prep time, a nexus and an enviromental advantage to pull off what he did

maul has been stuck in a dumpster for nearly a decade. his skill levels were expected to dull. had he actually killed obi-wan and went on to continue his training with sidious, maul could've actually equalled sidious in skill. his mandalore battle showed that even in his rusty state he could somewhat keep up with sidious better than 3 other jedi masters

Nexus? Where?

That's a legends thing, not canon.

As far as canon is concerned, nothing to suggest TPM Kenobi is equal to Jinn. In fact even AOTC isn't.