The Official Composite Suggsverse Debunking Thread (T.O.C.S.D.T.)

So this thread is where anyone can post worthy/excellent debunks against the horse-shit of literature known as Suggsverse. I myself will begin by posting some debunking I found were extremely good against the verse. In short, this is a thread meant to catalog/old any debunking you may use against Lionel Suggs/Sergeant Muscles or his alts if he is derailing a thread out of his own salt and fanboyism.

People NOT allowed here: Sergeant Muscles and alts (if you show up here Sergeant, I will legitamently report you to the Mods right away and get you and your alts banned, remember, your 1 month ban still isn't over Lionel, and given your earlier response, I can see you haven't learnt your lesson).

Debunking "beyond omnipotence"

We shall began with debunking against what Suggs is best known for: his beyond omnipotence BS.

I think @coolguy18 post was amazing in debunking this notion, it basically sums everything up:

this is part of the reason why Lionel wrote suggsverse. Everyone has there own definition of omnipotence and moment you disagree it's labeled as incorrect or weaker than their definition.

I won't give a response on the match up currently, but let me clear something. When we are talking about Omnipotence, we generally mean the real omnipotence. Not the hogwash from powerlisting wiki. Some reality warpers can do anything they want without caring shit about logic and casualty. Does that automatically mean that they are absolite omnipotent? Lol no.

Omnipotence is an overused term in fiction, and only small amount of verses implements it correctly. Suggverse isn't one of them.

The characteristics of a Real omnipotent is simple. Boundless, beyond all limitiations, and definitions. Beyond dualities, Trialities, infinitialities, etc. Source of all concepts and realities itself. All encompassing, transcending all creation yet interpenetrating all existence. Yada yada yada.

See, basic right? Also, I agree that there are many interpretations and definitions of omnipotence, and if this is suggverse's:

Absolutely Everything; Omnipotence is the very act of doing absolutely anything. It is all power, top-level, absolute pinnacle and everything beyond them, existing above and beyond any other power and concept, without any effort.

Sounds cringy, but yes it is right, I guess. Assuming they use this definition. Anyways, I have no qualms about definition and shit. The problem is, how you use it to implement it on your verse.

And damn Suggverse's Omnipotence is a complete utter joke, I'm sorry. Why? Because Suggverse's "true omnipotence" can be transcended by their chars ffs. Also, wtf does meta omnipotence even means? Wtf is baseline omnipotence? It's a fookin damned mess. Suggverse's interpretation of Omnipotence is like blasphemy to the true omnipotence. U talk about definition, yet suggverse destroyed the definition omnipitence. SOMEHOW, THE TRUE OMNOPOTENT THAT IS ABSOLUTELY TOP LEVEL WAS TRANSCENDED. Just, oof.

The fact that the "absolute, true, and boundless omnipotent" of suggverse was transcended debunks it's omnipotence at all. Big fail. Want to know how other verses uses Omnipotent? Simple. They uses it as a source. A boundless source of everything in their universe. It's just basically beyond all. Some omnipotent even emenates reality itself like YHVH of Sepiroth and Neoplatonism the One. Infinities doesn't matter. Haxes doesn't matter. Dualities don't matter. In front of a real omnipotent, those are hogwash since it came through it, and through it, they exists.

So yeah, there is no such things as types of omnipotence. It's either you are omnipotent, or not. There is also no such thing as transcending omnipotence, since it breaks the purpose of being untranscendable. If the omnipotent of the verse was transcended, then It wasn't omnipotent in the first place. However, this is suggverse which has massively beyond omnipotent bullshit. The anti feats are strong and many in this one.

This the the problem of verses throwing words they don't understand to make their verse sound op. Even if ur definition is true, it's shit if the way you show it is very wrong. And that is what suggverse is doing, and why almost everyone hates it. Lionel is just a salty fool who keeps throwing cool sounding terms such as Platonic, omnipotence, and etc without knowing what they really mean so that his chars would seem to be OP. I will give you an advice sarge. Read crisisverse or WOD. They have no beyond omnipotent hogwahs, but they would own suggverse so hard that Lionel will cry. They also use the terms of omnipitence and etc. Correctly. (Well, not really dead on correct, but it's way more accurate than shitverse)

Anyways, sorry for the long post, but tldr, Omnipotence in Suggverse is shit.

Sums up the basics. But another debator has also brought up an extremely good debunk against this flawed notion of "beyond omnipotence", that debator would be @deagonx. His arguments is a little longer but I'llpost whatever I think is relevant:

Something being impossible and something being meaningless are two very different things. A "square circle" isn't simply impossible, it isn't a thing. It's two words with diametrically opposed qualities. Being "faster than infinite speed" means nothing. Infinite speed means you can arrive anywhere instantaneously. Theres no such thing as faster than that without time travel, which has nothing to do with speed.

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No one is "afraid" to touch on them, it's just that it's completely meaningless. There's no such thing as above omnipotence. That's what it means to be omnipotent. If there is, then "omnipotent" is a misnomer.

Then you're saying nothing in Suggsverse can be discussed regularly because it advertises the fact that the definitions of words are being ignored. So no one in Suggs is "beyond omnipotent" they are "beyond omnipotent*"

*Some word that is read and pronounced as "omnipotent" but has a completely different meaning than the actual word.

That must also go for faster than infinite* speed

*Some word that is read and pronounced as "infinite" but has a completely different meaning than the actual word.

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The "stone paradox" is an illogical problem, not a logical one. It's a defect of language, not of omnipotence. An omnipotent can't "create a stone heavier than he can lift" because logically no stone with that quality can exist. His ability to lift things isn't limited by it's weight, so increasing that attribute will never affect his ability to lift it.

Omnipotence means you can do anything logical. Since illogical things aren't really things at all. Logic is the framework through which we understand things. Language is capable of proposing illogical concepts, but that doesn't make omnipotence a paradox.

Lionel Suggs doesn't understand this, which means his work of fiction can't be taken seriously as it pertains to the concept of omnipotence.

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That's not the kind of logic I am talking about. You are limited by your own strength, intellect, and time. None of those limitations apply to an omnipotent being, which has no limitations. It's a misnomer to even refer to logic as a "limitation" because anything described outside of logic isn't a thing at all, it's a meaningless mismash of words.

Language is capable of proposing things that have no genuine meaning, incoherent phrases or objects are able to be proposed through language even if their properties are incongruent with eachother.

An omnipotent can make or do any thing, but it cannot create a square circle, because a square circle is not a thing, it is a meaningless phrase that cannot exist with the current definitions of the worlds involved.

This is a great argument philosophically, in my opinion, from Deagonx, debunks the omnipotent paradox as well.

If you wish to read the full debates/arguments, they may be found here:

Coolguy18: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/aleister-crowley-toaru-majutsu-no-index-vs-zeno-2083125/

Deagonx: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/who-can-beat-the-many-forms-of-christopher-sincere-2079737/?page=3

Debunking the cosmology

Another lie being sold to us to justify Suggsverse winning battles is that it apparently has the "largest cosmology in fiction". Nothing could be further from the truth, as the purpose of this blog, debunks will be linked that are aimed at debunking the cosmology.

I think my personal debunking of Suggs' cosmology is a good one, feel free to disgaree. I will warn, however, that it can feel a little too "math" based at times. Note that mathematics is really the only (objective) was to decide whose cosmology is larger.

Due to how absurdly long the post was, I feel I should instead link the thread here: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/rimura-tempest-vs-dark-schneider-2083951/

I feel that ZGTfreak's debunking of Suggsverse cosmology was nice as well, as a bonus, you'll see some Umineko cosmology there: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/battles-7/battler-ushiromiya-vs-alex-victory-2063874/

Note that my and ZGT's analysis differ mainly because of criteria. Mine was more so cardinal math while his was more of a metaphysical analysis.

Debunking the hax

As said above, plan on debunking the hax of Suggsversal characters. We shall begin with Alex Victory:

Victory Embodiment | Absolute Invincibility: Alex Victory's existence is literally "I'm always stronger, always higher, always faster, and always better. He is always more You than You yourself. Because of this, he is absolutely unable to lose.

Seriously doubt this, if this was actually legit, he should be at the absolute top of the verse. Since no one can beat him, regardless, I have heard debunks against this when he was apparently "defeated" which totally contridicts his so-called "absolute inability to lose". The ability itself is vague tbh.

Creates infinite replicas of himself; they are also able to use Alex's abilities. From Heir to the Stars - Chris Raion Spades, pg. 47:

I don't see why he would need clonning if he was already unbeatable. Shouldn't one Alex Victory suffice to solo everything is he was actually "unable to lose"? Regardless, this is not an impressive ability, tons of characters have similar hax.

Immediately recovers from being completely deleted on all levels of existence reality conceptualize thought identity . From Heir to the Stars - Skylar Kosenshou, pg. 39:

Existence erasure with fancy wording and phrases. Nice, again, not impressive as its a dime a dozen-type ability throughout fiction.

Can Evades metafictional hax. From Heir to the Stars III, pg. 111:

I don't think Suggs knows what metafiction means. If he means narrative hax, that's really, again, not impressive, a dime a dozen thing in fiction. Existence and conceptual erasure should have this by default tbh.

Breaks the entire Heir to the Stars cosmology with a single foot step!!. From Heir to the Stars III, pg. 151:

This is not impressive, what he destroyed was a paradoxial and smol cosmology, as debunked up above.

Begins destroying the entire Heir to the Stars by denying narrative structure. From Heir to the Stars III, pg. 150:

Same thing as above, I don't think this is particularly impressive seeing how "narrative erasure" falls under the jurisdiction of conceptual and existence erasure.

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Now we move onto Christopher Sincere Pride:

Quantum Probability Manipulation: Christopher Sincere Pride has the power to manipulate Quantum Probability; the manipulation of Cause and Effect. Sincere can create and control destiny itself. However, he seems to only really use this ability in combat, for fear of what it might do if he utilize it too freely, because he is a paradox.

Okay, basic probablity manip here. Nothing impressive.

Quantum Jumping: Sincere has shown the ability to quantum jump across a centillion amount of universes in a quantum frame of time.

I am pretty sure that's not what a "quantum jump" means.

Enhanced Speed: Even without the Quantum based abilities, his natural speed and reaction allows him operate in the attoseconds. (He fought an entire group in a matter of 0.005 attoseconds in volume 2)

Okay, reaction speed hax, that's fine.

Enhanced Endurance: Even when his powers are deactivated, he is able endure attacks with an infinite amount of force behind them, as well as attacks with more than an infinite amount of force behind them.

Now we run into problems. You can't apply higher infinities when it comes to force or energy, that's not how it works. Higher infinities only apply to infinite sets and quantities, you can't use it for discreet stuff like speed or force.

Removal from Space-time: At any moment, Sincere can literally remove himself from time and space.

Not sure why he would want to do this, but okay.

Equation Seal: He can simply create an equation that could answer the equation of anything that is omni, and use it to perfectly bind a perfect infinity to a finite equation. When he utilized this, he easily sealed away Albedo.

I have no idea what this means. What the hell is "perfect infinity"? Does it mean omnipotence? Well then that's debunked as well, seeing how this guy isn't a supreme being and can apparently grow stronger.

Absolute Immortality | Regeneration: When Ashtwilight emitted a vibration that caused an irreversible metaphysical annihilation event, causing all possibilities (even those lower than a concept below absolute 0), potentialities, actualities, and continuums that linked to the conception of Sincere, to cease to exist or to have ever existed, he was able to instantly regenerate from it. In actuality, it is the absolute metaphysical end of everything that identified as Christopher Sincere Pride. It is not "the perfect end” because "after" this happens, nothing of the target ever existed. There was never a target to annihilate. There was never an end to the target since the target's beginning never existed. However, Sincere was able to regenerate, even after she canceled out his ability to regenerate.

Regeneration from existence erasure? Okay, still a dime a dozen in fiction. Not sure how he can still regenerated if the ability has been stripped from him, however.

Unbounded: He is so far above Infinite Speed, Immanence, Transcendence, Omnilock, Omnipresence, and Metapresence that he is simply beyond the necessity of the attributes.

"Metapresence" isn't a thing. You can't be "faster than onnipresence", its literally just a bunch of jumbled up words with no volume or meaning (as Deagonx has explained above). I also don't think he knows what "omnilock" means, either.

Metaphysical Probability Shields: These shields automatically multiplies effects targeting Sincere by 0, negating them entirely.

Sounds like a massive NLF to me. I'm sure this has be bypassed somewhere in the series.

Destiny Shields: When The High Priestess mentally deconstructed the source of all principles, waves and phenomena that represented the essence of Christopher Sincere Pride, Destiny Shields automatically multiplied the event by 0, resetting the observer back to point 0.

What the...doesn't this just do the same thing as the hax above? Guess there are limits (namely wave functions) that the above can't protect against huh?

True Endscape: Through commanding the principle behind possibility, Sincere can use causality waves to "synchronize" with the 'frequency' of principle behind the creation of a target. Then, in an unchanging moment, he can command ALL POSSIBILITY to remove the target from the Grand Principle of Creation – NOTHING.

No idea what this means. Just sounds like basic existence erasure to me.

Perfect Immortality: All events had been removed from the story. In fact, the totality of life had been removed from all stories. The totality of death had been removed from all stories. All realities, planes, numbers, subjects, levels, wave functions, wave existences, phenomena, abstract mathematics, metaphysics, existences, conceptions, causalities, imagination, nonexistence, possibilities, nothingness, potentialities, actualities, uncertainties, truths, and unknowns had been removed from all attributes, modes, configurations, and stories. There never was the Pure Act or Event of Creation. However, those who existed outside of Pure Act and Creation were completely unaffected. Sincere is one of those who was completely unaffected.

No idea what is this jumbled mess of horseshit.

Christopher Sincere Pride exists in a state of reflections; an infinite equation of 8. Each is a reflection of each other. Everything that defines one, defines the other. There is no difference. Christopher Sincere Pride mirrored himself eight times in order to find out the truth hidden within the truth. There are eight of them, which reflect from each other, continuing in an eternity of eight. Because of this aspect, none of them can truly be destroyed or perfectly erased... unless they are all affected and erased at the same time... which is in itself an impossibility, considering all other aspects of each of their existences.

So he's like a Horcus from Harry Potter? Reliant on some things being alive to survive after death, not so impressive it seems.

This the form he used to transcend fiction to enter our reality and effortlessly defeat Lionel Suggs.

What the...so he's real? Oh wait, Sergeant literally believes Suggsverse's characters exits in real life. I don't think why I need to explain why Suggs' characters don't exist in real life, I'm pretty sure there have been others who have valiantly debunked this retarded notion. I have been unable to find the links sadly, so do post them if you happen to come across any of such debunks.

The Silver Devil possesses all of Christopher Sincere Pride's abilities, for they are literally one in the same. The Silver Devil is the true form of Christopher Sincere Pride that exists outside Existence and Nonexistence, wielding power that equates to The Ace of Spades.

No idea what this means, I have no idea what the "Ace of Spades" even is.

All-encompassing: This timeless entity with limits unable to be comprehended by the union of NOTHING and ALL POSSIBILITY encompassed all modes of existences and nonexistence; all modes and attributes of possibilities, potentialities, and actualities within all different states of existences.

More existence erasure with fancy wording, nice.

Silver Transcendence: The Silver Devil does not exist within the bounds of The Mainfold and cannot be affected by forces from within it.

Verse specific invulnerability, great, holds no volume in a cross-fictional debate.

TLDR : All the same power of his base form but enchanted plus Omnipresent and can't be affect by hax that are below and outerversal level.

Oh goodie, now Suggs is using VsBattle's tiering. Guess everyone low 1-A and above takes a dump on this guy by the writer's own words. And hey, I thought he was beyond omnipresence? Why is he getting an ability is is supposedly so far above?

After surpassing the ♠The Ace of Spades♠, effortlessly felling the former creator of Suggsverse .Once again, needing to surpass himself, Sincere surpassed his true self - The Silver Devil in order to reach his True Identity... True Self... True Signature..Realizing that he is platonic embodiment of the will,philosophy, and intellect of Lionel Suggs He combines with the essence of Suggs becomes Lionel Christopher Suggs!!

Platonic concept of Lionel's intellect? Huh, most not be a very strong platonic concept then. Anyways, I seriously doubt Suggs understands enough Platonism for us to take him seriously given how he believes in beyond omnipotence.

Pendulum Kingbreaker (Lionel Christopher Suggs) was at the apex of Heir to the Stars. At this zenith, he (at the bare minimum) refused to go beyond < eternities of magnitudes < absolute infinitudes < lower than below absolute < the principle in which defined nothingness of नीचीन < ∀ paraeternities of metamagnitudes < trans-absolute infinitudes < अपर-lower than below absolute < nihility of effort in order to combat.

Is that Tamil I see? No idea what kind of BS is being used here. What the hell is "paraeternities of metamagnitudes"? Again, with the problem above, just a mismasing of words that hold no volume or meaning.

He is beyond the necessity of any definition / essence of Omnipotent , as he exists in the gap between Tier 2 and Tier 1

An great, here we go with the "beyond omnipotence". I don't see how he can be Platonic and beyond omnipotence, seems to contridict the definition doesn't it?

The very design of Pendulum Kingbreaker (Lionel Christopher Suggs) is shown to represent that he has now surpassed all categories within Heir to the Stars. Heir to the Stars itself is nothing but a part of him. However, he has once again appeared as a form akin to a paradox as he falls in-between the gap of Tier 2 and Tier 1

Holds no volume or meaning. We, again, have no idea what Tier 1 and Tier 2 are, and its likely some word soup or beyond omnipotence jargon which means nothing and has been debunked many times.

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That's all the hax I have been able to find as of now, feel free to post your own debunking of Suggsversal hax and powers.

God tier thread

Bhump

Now this is what I like to see

BRUH LMAO.

Yhwach solos the verse btw. He affects our own reality, he's banned on Comicvine due to his power, Suggsverse can't compare

Bump

Deagon is one of the best posters on the site imo. I follow his threads closely.

I appreciate the shoutouts.

@anaverageguy123:

Lol, Sergeant is back.

@takenstew22: It's even funnier when he came back and failed to debunk the actual thing at hand.

@sergeantmuscle: Get out, I specifically said you weren't allowed here. You coming here starts a shit show. So get out or I will tag mods.

+1

Was debunking their terrible hax debunk not the actual thing at hand? What blood oath did you sign to clowns to sacrifice your ability to think objectively?

Gan solos Sucksverse

Suggstrashverse debunk in few words:An omnipotent can just make themselves beyond omnipotence

@lmaolmaolmao: Big Brain Moment

@anaverageguy123: You sound really butt hurt, NGL. Also, you're debunking of the omnipotent is, while right, wrong. Omnipotent is a very annoying part of sugg, because while it's wrong, it's true. Which makes everyone hate sugg verse

lol what?what are you even saying?How is his debunk wrong?
suggsverse invalidates most of it's feats by butchering up every last definition in the dictionary.No amount of author intent would fix that.In fact,accepting it's feats would be a more subjective choice

sadly it gets stomped to oblivion by verses like SCP and Umineko

™€£~∆~¶€% doesnt mean anything.Any character with that hax is featless by default

VALIDATION/ DEFENSE OF "BEYOND OMNIPOTENCE" IN SUGGSVERSE aka HEIR TO THE STARS

@deactivated-5f98b2eb38d48 ; @Coolguy18 ;

@lmaolmaolmao ; @SeaGod ; @deagonx ;

@azimovikh ; @haxmode ; @MAZAHS117 ; @Kairan1979 ; @Ready_4_Madness ; @waezi2 ; @mrmonster ; @Guru_Crack ; @Penguin-Dust ; @the_stegman ; @deactivated-5f98b2eb38d48 ; @RikuYamaha ; @RustedDusty ; @FaradaySloth ; @SergeantMuscle

LIMITS OF OMNIPOTENCE/ JEYA AND DEFENCE OF

SUGGSVERSE/ HEIR TO THE STARS BOOKS*

*JEYA/ JEY = Jehovah, Elohim, Yahweh, Allah (Abbreviation)*

Just looking online u will find many philosophies and conventions on the Limits of Omnipotence from both sides of the aisle i.e: Theists/ Religious and anti-Theist/ non-religious.

Abrahamic god "Yahweh" aka "Elohim" aka "Jehovah" (abbreviate as JEY for short), whom is Judeo-Christians commonly refer to as "God" (even though this term does NOT belong to Abrahamic religions but can also refer to ANY supreme creator Godking of any religion) has been used as the basis for the representation of Omnipotence in debates going back to the medieval era and therefore the contents of holy books like the Bible, Quran and book for Judaism all come under scrutiny about what they say of the omnipotence of their God so with Christianity being the most popular religion (more predominantly in the West) therefore it's the Bible that endures the heaviest scrutiny.

Even Judeo-Christian theologists and theists have accepted and agreed that there are things that their "Omnipotent" God can NOT do directly based on what in written in the Bible such as...

*(1) GOD CAN NOT LIE*

Hebrews 6:18). Other verses supporting this truth are Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuel 15:29; Romans 3:4; ;1 John 1:10; and 1 John 5:10.

*Humans can do this easily!!!!*

*(2) GOD/JEY CANNOT CHANGE.*

“For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed” (Malachi 3:6). To verify, compare Psalm 90:2,4; Psalm 102:27; Hebrews 13:8; James 1:17; and Revelation 1:8.

Whatever decision JEY makes, he is trapped by that decision because his decisions are supposed to be perfect.

Yet *Humans can easily change their minds on whatever decision they make!!!!*

*(3) GOD/JEY CANNOT BREAK A PROMISE.*

“My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips” (Psalm 89:34). Also see: Leviticus 26:44; Jeremiah 14:21; and Jeremiah 33:20–22. This further validates (2).

*(4) GOD/JEY CANNOT TOLERATE SIN.*

“But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear” (Isaiah 59:1–2). See Proverbs 15:29; Jeremiah 5:25; Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Ezekiel 39:23–24; Romans 6:23; 1 Corinthians 6:9–10; Galatians 6:7–8; and 1 John 3:4.

This is why JEY does NOT allow presumed "sinners" into his heaven yet Abrahamic religions claim that JEY/ their "God is Love" and "all forgiving father" ...if this were true then his ability to forgive would be boundless and yet he despises sinners???

*(5) Logical limitation- GOD/JEY CAN NOT CREATE ANOTHER GOD/ OMNIPOTENT BEING* ....either in equal power or of greater power!

*Humans can do this easily, ability to create something that has more strength, power, intellect, speed, faster self duplication, etc than its human creator through advancement of sciences and technological innovations.... keep a keen eye on the advancement of a.i robotics*.

This is simple logic which is also a limitation therefore this specific point also *proves that Omnipotence is confined to logic*. The Omnipotence Paradox of "Can God create a stone he CAN NOT lift" also fits here.

*C. S. LEWIS* argues that when talking about omnipotence, referencing "a rock so heavy that God cannot lift it" is nonsense just as much as referencing "a square circle"; that IT IS *NOT LOGICALLY COHERENT* in terms of power to think that omnipotence includes the power to do the logically impossible therefore God/ Omnipotent being equivalent is limited to the logic of possibility *NOT* impossibility.

Then we proceed to the philosophy of *SCHOLASTICISM* and the limitation that GOD CAN ONLY DO "POSSIBLE THINGS" aka LOGICAL POSSIBILITY *WITHOUT SELF-CONTRADICTION* which perfectly aligns with th nature of an Omnipotent/ God being incapable/NOT able to change. Therefore if God can not change then it is incapable/can NOT be self-contradictory this can NOT to breach paradoxes.

*THOMAS AQUINAS* acknowledged difficulty in comprehending the deity's power: "All confess that God is omnipotent; but it seems difficult to explain in what His omnipotence precisely consists: for there may be doubt as to the precise meaning of the word 'all' when we say that God can do all things. If, however, we consider the matter aright, since power is said in reference to POSSIBLE THINGS, this phrase, 'God can do all things,' is rightly understood to mean that God can do all things that are possible; and for this reason He is said to be omnipotent."

Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologiae, 1a, Q. 25, A. 3, Respondeo; quoted from The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, Second and Revised Edition, 1920

*Christian philosophers, such as Norman Geisler and William Lane Craig*, have said that the paradox assumes a wrong definition of omnipotence. Omnipotence, they say, does NOT mean that God can do anything at all but, rather, that he can do anything that is possible according to his nature. The distinction is important. God CAN NOT perform logical absurdities; he CAN NOT, for instance, make 1+1=3. Likewise, God CAN NOT make a being greater than himself because he is, by definition, the greatest possible being. God is limited in his actions to his nature.

https://www.alwaysbeready.com/images/stories/alwaysbeready/geisler%20norman%20-%20how%20to%20approach%20bible%20difficulties%20a.pdf

https://www.equip.org/article/any-absolutes-absolutely/

*(6) GOD/JEY CAN NOT SELF-TERMINATE aka COMMIT SUICIDE/ ABSOLUTE DEATH*

*Humans can do this easily, commit suicide!!!!*

*Philosopher Augustine of Hippo* took in his The City of God stated...

"For He is called omnipotent on account of His doing what He wills, not on account of His suffering what He wills not; for if that should befall Him, He would by no means be omnipotent. Wherefore, He cannot do some things for the very reason that He is omnipotent."

Thus Augustine argued that God could not do anything or create any situation that would, in effect, make God not God. In other words, God is incapable/ CAN NOT of making himself non- Omnipotent and CAN NOT kill himself.

NPNF1-02. St. Augustine's City of God and Christian Doctrine

*Then there are TYPES OF OMNIPOTENCE...*

*ESSENTIALLY AND ACCIDENTAL OMNIPOTENCE*

...The notion of omnipotence can also be applied to an entity in different ways. An ESSENTIALLY OMNIPOTENT being is an entity that is necessarily omnipotent. In contrast, an ACCIDENTALLY OMNIPOTENT being is an entity that can be omnipotent for a temporary period of time, and then becomes non-omnipotent. The omnipotence paradox can be applied to each type of being differently.

Hoffman, Joshua, Rosenkrantz, Gary. "Omnipotence" The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Summer 2002 Edition). Edward N. Zalta (ed.).

*FIRST ORDER AND/OR SECOND ORDER OMNIPOTENCE*

In a 1955 article in the *philosophy journal Mind, J. L. Mackie* tried to resolve the paradox by distinguishing between first-order omnipotence (unlimited power to act) and second-order omnipotence (unlimited power to determine what powers to act things shall have). An omnipotent being with both first and second-order omnipotence at a particular time might restrict its own power to act and, henceforth, cease to be omnipotent in either sense.

Mackie, J. L., "Evil and Omnipotence." Mind LXIV, No, 254 (April 1955)

The Power of God: Readings on Omnipotence and Evil. Linwood Urban and Douglass Walton eds. Oxford University Press 1978. Keene and Mayo disagree p. 145, Savage provides 3 formalizations p. 138–41, Cowan has a different strategy p. 147, and Walton uses a whole separate strategy p. 153–63

In addition, some philosophers have considered the assumption that a being is either omnipotent or non-omnipotent to be a false dilemma, as it neglects the possibility of varying degrees of omnipotence.

Haeckel, Ernst. The Riddle of the Universe. Harper and Brothers, 1900

*In the 11th century, Anselm of Canterbury* argues that there are many things that God cannot do, but that nonetheless he counts as omnipotent. He also said...and believed to be the first, and best-known, ontological argument was proposed by St. Anselm of Canterbury in the 11th century C.E. *In his Proslogion*, St. Anselm claims to derive the existence of God from the concept of a being than which no greater can be conceived. *St. Anselm reasoned that, "if such a being fails to exist, then a greater being—namely, a being than which no greater can be conceived, and which exists—CAN BE CONCEIVED".* *(in Suggverse case... BEYOND OMNIPOTENCE has conceived).*

Anselm of Canterbury Proslogion Chap. VII, in The Power of God: readings on Omnipotence and Evil. Linwood Urban and Douglass Walton eds. Oxford University Press 1978

*Ethan Allen's Reason* addresses the topics of original sin, theodicy and several others in classic Enlightenment fashion. In Chapter 3, section IV, he notes that "omnipotence itself" could not exempt animal life from mortality, since change and death are defining attributes of such life. He argues, "the one cannot be without the other, any more than there could be a compact number of mountains without valleys, or that I could exist and not exist at the same time, or that God should effect any other contradiction in nature." Labeled by his friends a Deist, Allen ACCEPTED THE NOTION OF A DIVINE BEING, THOUGH THROUGHOUT REASON HE ARGUES THAT EVEN A DIVINE BEING (referring to God/JEY/ Omnipotence) MUST BE CIRCUMSCRIBED BY LOGIC.

Allen, Ethan. Reason: The Only Oracle of Man. J.P. Mendum, Cornill; 1854. Originally published 1784.

*This is where Theists/ religious folks will throw in DIVINE COMMAND THEORY aka THEOLOGICAL VOLUNTARISM* in support of limitlessness of Omnipotence but the criticism of Voluntarism/ Divine Command Theory exposes it's massive undeniable flaws which in turn leads back to limits of Omnipotence... I will leave this to your research on that.

*THE EUTHYPHRO DILEMMA...another limitation of Omnipotence* whereby God may NOT be the source/ creator of morality.*

This one of the criticisms of Divine Command Theory/DVT originated in philosopher Plato's dialogue in Euthypro between him and Socrates.

It was modernized by *German philosopher and mathematician GOTTFRIED LEIBNIZ* presented this version of the dilemmas "It is generally agreed that whatever God wills is good and just. But there remains the question whether it is good and just because God wills it or whether God wills it because it is good and just; in other words, whether justice and Goodness are arbitrary or whether they belong to the necessary and eternal truths about the nature of things."

*Leibniz 1702, p.516*

*Euthypro dilemma basically says*... if will of God/Omnipotent being is the source of morality.....whereby if it's true that whatever God says is moral including doing inherently heinous horrid acts eg: eating babies, mass genocide, necrophilia, etc...which is wrong therefore implying the morality did NOT originate from God/Omnipotent being whereby people who are not aware of the will of God/s/ Omnipotent beings can still do and be good (caring, sharing, empathy, sympathy, charity, honesty, being just, etc) by self-choice/ ABSOLUTE free-will...which in turn questions the absolute-ness of "free-will" in religion directed at omnipotence of God/ omnipotent being because absolute true free-will is... apparently...supposed to be absent of foreknowledge by a third party unless there manipulation on some level which violates the purity and definition of free-will.

*You all can do further research on this!!!!*

There is much more. Look into "What God can NOT do"; "Omnipotence paradox (es)" and criticisms of Divine Command Theory / Theological Voluntarism.

Etymology of the word "Omnipotence" only scratches the surface giving only origin to the word but not a full understanding of the word... it's implications, application, technicalities, etc... which is where schools of thought and philosophies came and delves much much deeper.

@shadowone01x: Soooo...

*- - - - BACK TO SUGGSVERSE aka HEIR TO THE STARS BOOKS- - - -*

Lionel Suggs has a B.A in English, he studies the different philosophies and conventions about Omnipotence so if Suggsverse subscribed to beliefs and stipulations about the limitations of Omnipotence then how is his concept of "above Omnipotence" false?

By the mere fact the conventions for the limits of Omnipotence exist literally implies that...at the very least... "above Omnipotence" is conceivable whereby if there is/are being/s that can surpass some limitations of Omnipotence inherently makes them "above Omnipotence".

Given that Omnipotence creates and governs/has power over infinity... wouldn't a being "above Omnipotence" be capable to create and have power over a plurality of infinity and totality hence the use of "infinities", "totalities" and "omniverses" in Suggverse books?

From what I can gather about the content of Suggsverse books (from the many online forums about Suggsverse) is that there are "levels of omnipotence" in Suggsverse which seems inspired by what I mentioned earlier in Essential &amp;amp; Accidental Omnipotence and First Order &amp;amp; Second order Omnipotence....Lionel Suggs did NOT create them but it's part of the study of metaphysics, conventions and philosophies about Omnipotence.

Lionel Suggs has been very fascinated about this for a while which is why he wrote THE LIMITS OF POWER which was apparently written before his popular GETBACKERS DEBACLE on battleboards.

My basic understanding about Suggsverse is this...

...Yes, the whole point of Suggsverse plays with omnipotence whereby the universe and it's characters inherently hyper-paradoxical whereby their power, abilities and existence are above contradictions and paradoxes. It seems to be the fabric on which Suggverse was created whereby the only way for a Suggsverse character to defeat another Suggsverse character is to be more powerful enough to break more paradoxes including breaking, changing and rewriting inherent narrative whereby such beings would supercede and transcend concepts like The First cause and Omniverses and Infinities would literally be sub-planck below concepts to "Beyond Omnipotence" beings.

Then your probable response might be that above Omnipotence would be just illogical impossibilities and unfathomable nonsense but guess what....above Omnipotent being/s would LITERALLY have the power to create and actualize such impossibilities and unfathomable "nonsense". Such beings would be able to make 2+2= 7 and square circles/ round triangles.

The closest thing within an omniverse to come close to Suggsverse is CARTOON LOGIC but even Suggsverse has surpassed that by far. Cartoon logic is repeatedly paradoxical like a cartoon character LITERALLY pulling a Bahamas sunny scenery to the south pole ...OR draw and paint a nice house on an art canvas or piece of paper then the character proceeds to literally walk and enter into that house ....OR Literally talking animals that are standing, eating, driving, flying planes/ spaceships, breaking the 4th wall, etc and many more crazy things.... and yet we all allow it in Cartoon logic which is sub-omniversal/ below omniversal so why NOT Suggsverse which has gone endless multitudes of infinities + boundlessness ++++ BEYOND THAT?

Then u might probably say that such a concept as beyond Omnipotence would create inconsistencies and the story would collapse and fold unto itself where characters just do whatever they want anyhow ....but if Cartoons logic toons can have stories which usually involve some characters being more capable of doing more cartoon logic things over other cartoon characters who can't then why not Suggsverse be able to do the same yet maintaining a coherent story were some characters are more Omnipotent than others? ..... Take Roadrunner cartoon for instance, the wolf perpetually fails to catch or defeat the roadrunner/ Ostrich-looking bird despite indulging in all kinds of cartoon logic traps, yet the Roadrunner is still able to perform greater paradox breaking feats of cartoon logic to outwit/ defeat the wolf character; Same applies to Tom &amp;amp; Jerry, Sylvester &amp;amp; Tweety, Mickey Mouse, Mighty Mouse and many MANY MORE.

The non-canonical short tale/ *analogy* of the *"SUGGSVERSE COCKROACH"* perfectly captures how the Suggsverse works. It analogy goes as The Suggsverse cockroach supposedly destroyed all existence and "non-existence" including itself and still be survived all in an attempt to kill another more powerful character (Suggsverse Joker) who survived all that, simply laughed and then squashed that cockroach....the cockroach died.

Infinity is boundless yet it's been proven fact that there is infinity larger than other infinity therefore exists plurality of INFINITIES.....and this the limitations of Omnipotence inherently means "Beyond Omnipotence" is possible and yet Suggsverse has exceedingly gone waaaay above the combination of both.

At such mind breaking insanity levels of power all pre/ post/ actual/ meta concepts, pre/post/ actual/ meta abstracts, pre/ post/ actual/ meta real AND pre/ post/ actual/ meta fictional, imagined AND not imagined, trans-meta-paradoxicalities (not a real word, but makes sense in our Suggsverse :laughing face here: amongst others as follows...) above the highest upper apex peak of all collectives (plural) of infinities (plural), totalities (plural), existences (plural), non-existences (plural), nothingnesses (plural), pre and post-existences, pre/post and below nothingnesses , etc can all be actualized to such beings. All these are within the Suggsverse books.

This is the only way I have been able try to understand Suggsverse.

Applying biased more popularly accepted conventions of understanding to Suggsverse will trap u in a myopic loop of multiple paradoxes (which haters claim debunks Suggsverse) which in fact Suggsverse has already transcended.

Given that Lionel Suggs himself is also surpassed by these Suggsverse/ Heir to the Stars beings....it's fair to presume that he is merely an instrument of which "Suggsverse" being compelled him to write. And what occurs at such "Beyond Omnipotence" is like

I do NOT know much about metaphysics, schools of thought or philosophies....I simply presented what is easily found online which apparently support the concept of Suggsverse and shared my thoughts on Suggsverse.

I have NOT read all of Suggsverse books so I am NOT saying whether Suggsverse is a masterpiece or not since I have no direct and complete knowledge of Suggsverse contents except what I have found online across many websites, battleboards and forums.

Having said all that we (haters, fans and middlers) that Lionel Suggs is the first writer to attempt such a feat.....to breach Omnipotence and create beyond Omnipotence... has indeed made Suggsverse absolute in it's originality and uniqueness conceptually regardless of subjective story quality (I haven't read any Suggsverse book) and opinions (fans, haters and middlers).

Seems suggs is back

@shadowone01x Not upset at all but curious why I was tagged. What did you think I had to add to this debate? Thanks for the thought though.

@shadowone01x

Even Judeo-Christian theologists and theists have accepted and agreed that there are things that their "Omnipotent" God can NOT do directly based on what in written in the Bible such as...

They "couldn't hurt a fly". Are they saying that they are physically incapable of hurting a fly? Omnipotence is a scale of power. As quoted by yourself "unlimited power to act". Moral choice plays no part in the theoretical ability to act. Without any logical framework or will to act then the theoretical "omnipotence" is meaningless. This exact paradox is mentioned below: "An omnipotent being with both first and second-order omnipotence at a particular time might restrict its own power to act and, henceforth, cease to be omnipotent in either sense."

*C. S. LEWIS* argues that when talking about omnipotence, referencing "a rock so heavy that God cannot lift it" is nonsense just as much as referencing "a square circle"; that IT IS *NOT LOGICALLY COHERENT* in terms of power to think that omnipotence includes the power to do the logically impossible therefore God/ Omnipotent being equivalent is limited to the logic of possibility *NOT* impossibility.

It's declared as nonsense because it is foolish to believe that there is any reason to create "a rock so heavy that God cannot lift it." A perfect God could not (or would not) do anything without meaning, and there is no meaning to creating this.

...The notion of omnipotence can also be applied to an entity in different ways. An ESSENTIALLY OMNIPOTENT being is an entity that is necessarily omnipotent. In contrast, an ACCIDENTALLY OMNIPOTENT being is an entity that can be omnipotent for a temporary period of time, and then becomes non-omnipotent. The omnipotence paradox can be applied to each type of being differently.

This is a paradox of terms. One cannot be omnipotent and be constrained by the notion of time. As humans we can perceive 4 dimensions, therefore a comprehensible definition of omnipotence requires their power to be able override all understandable dimensions.

*FIRST ORDER AND/OR SECOND ORDER OMNIPOTENCE*

In a 1955 article in the *philosophy journal Mind, J. L. Mackie* tried to resolve the paradox by distinguishing between first-order omnipotence (unlimited power to act) and second-order omnipotence (unlimited power to determine what powers to act things shall have). An omnipotent being with both first and second-order omnipotence at a particular time might restrict its own power to act and, henceforth, cease to be omnipotent in either sense.

The existence of first and second order omnipotence is a paradox. A first order being might will the second order being out of existence. A second order being may create more than 1 first order beings, which then makes them cease to be omnipotent since they have no power over the other beings.

Funny. If the O.P. knew how the scaling works he/she wouldn't waste time & energy with this.

Short and to the point: there's someone always stronger (within and beyond human conception).