Elder God battles are tough. Thier feats are pretty inter-reliant, scaling arguments become circular and on panel statements about them are open to interpretation. My *opinion* is team 2 takes this.
@six-deuce: Knull gains his power from the Abyss (which comes from when the universe existed as Ginnungagap, where he drifted in, before the Big Bang)
He's not really a "magical" being, he kinda focuses more on matter manipulation, and if he does, he doesn't follow the same rules as the likes of Chthon
Dormammu already whooped Gaea's ass(Even while severely weakened and in a far inferior body/form) and Umar defeated him in that same storyline. Chthon is basically the only threat to them here and together, they can overcome him without any issues.
Pretty much agree. Although I probably wouldn't go as far as saying without any issues. Chthon doesn't have as much solid information to go on, so it's too speculative to say how much of a threat he would be, but I feel the end result would still be the same.
@andromeda101: yeah, that is it. He is called an elder god in the issue the grendel symbiote is killed... but I dont know if that was meant to describe him as I am taking it, or just an "old god".
@andromeda101: that seems a fair interpretation. There is nothing directly tying Knull or Xaxal for that matter to the Demiurge origins other than the title "elder god" that I can see. Knull chopped the head off a celestial as he was forming the firmament, and the "Demiurge+" elder gods kinda popped up when primordial earth was formed. IDK honestly, everyone here seems to take a turn in the driver's seat then the dunce chair depending on the writer.
@professorrespect: right, but is the marvel big bang mutually exclusive with the way the Demiurge formed with earth? Seems to me Knull and the rest of the "elder gods" (excluding atum) have self-creation in common. The writing style is very different I grant, (the Demiurge arc is very anti-copernican...earth is center of the universe kind of feel) while knull is more conventional.
Didn't Gaea casually stomp the Defenders Big 4 (Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer, Hulk, and Namor)? Strange on his own fights Dormammu regularly, so I feel like someone who casually stomp him with back-up should (at least in theory), be well above Dormammu. Unless I'm missing or overlooking something. Admittedly I don't know a lot of these characters super well.
Didn't Gaea casually stomp the Defenders Big 4 (Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer, Hulk, and Namor)? Strange on his own fights Dormammu regularly, so I feel like someone who casually stomp him with back-up should (at least in theory), be well above Dormammu. Unless I'm missing or overlooking something. Admittedly I don't know a lot of these characters super well.
Bit misleading: Dormammu has always been leagues above Strange and they've never really been on equal terms.
Gaea and the Elder Gods in general aren't really as strong as Hell Lords like Dormammu and co.
@andromeda1001: Well that seems to indicate inconsistency.
Not really, Dormammu's been portrayed marginally above Strange many times. There are even instances where Dormammu has outright one-shooted Strange, or given mystical powers to non-practitioners to defeat him.
Didn't Gaea casually stomp the Defenders Big 4 (Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer, Hulk, and Namor)? Strange on his own fights Dormammu regularly, so I feel like someone who casually stomp him with back-up should (at least in theory), be well above Dormammu. Unless I'm missing or overlooking something. Admittedly I don't know a lot of these characters super well.
Bit misleading: Dormammu has always been leagues above Strange and they've never really been on equal terms.
Gaea and the Elder Gods in general aren't really as strong as Hell Lords like Dormammu and co.
@andromeda1001: Well that seems to indicate inconsistency.
Not really, Dormammu's been portrayed marginally above Strange many times. There are even instances where Dormammu has outright one-shooted Strange, or given mystical powers to non-practitioners to defeat him.
@professorrespect: right, but is the marvel big bang mutually exclusive with the way the Demiurge formed with earth? Seems to me Knull and the rest of the "elder gods" (excluding atum) have self-creation in common. The writing style is very different I grant, (the Demiurge arc is very anti-copernican...earth is center of the universe kind of feel) while knull is more conventional.
@andromeda101: yeah, that is it. He is called an elder god in the issue the grendel symbiote is killed... but I dont know if that was meant to describe him as I am taking it, or just an "old god".
Gaea and the Elder Gods in general aren't really as strong as Hell Lords like Dormammu and co.
Ya think?
Interested, if you'd like to elaborate.
I just think feat-wise they aren't very good. The best examples of Elder Gods are Gaea (who already lost to Dorm) and Chthon, who's massively featless and reliant on scaling to his inferiors. Outside of those two you have Set (who's the same as Chthon but has some more showings) and Oshtur (who is 1/3 of the Vishanti, which Dorm scales above if current events are to be believed)
@professorrespect: I am a bit confused at what you are trying to say or deduce here, friend.
The term Elder God merely refers to mystical beings (gods / demon) that predate the more conventional gods in comics.
Put in simpler words, there are gods in marvel comics that are derived from actual popular religion Odin / asgardians (from Norse mythology), Zeus / Olympians (from greek mythology) etc. But there were mystical being that existed before them, and those were merely referred to as Elder Gods.
If you were keen on finding more details Thor version 1, Annual 10; and Marvel Handbook 1986 explains this is more details.
So Elder God term is just a generic name, and not necessarily a description of power level. Before Gaea gave birth to Atum, earth was filled with so called "elder gods"; and these gods would consume each other becoming more powerful. So not all elder gods are actually created equal.
Also Gaea being inferior to Dormammu that you mention isn't as cut and dryThere is , for example, Doctor Strange volume 1 issue 9; where Gaea defeats / banishes Dormammu.
Dormammu actually has battles with people so from a battle forum perspective you would find more feats, Gaea doesnt normally go around fighting people; so her feats would be limited; but in comics its never been the case of one being shown significantly superior to other.
Gaea and the Elder Gods in general aren't really as strong as Hell Lords like Dormammu and co.
Ya think?
Interested, if you'd like to elaborate.
I just think feat-wise they aren't very good. The best examples of Elder Gods are Gaea (who already lost to Dorm) and Chthon, who's massively featless and reliant on scaling to his inferiors. Outside of those two you have Set (who's the same as Chthon but has some more showings) and Oshtur (who is 1/3 of the Vishanti, which Dorm scales above if current events are to be believed)
@professorrespect: I am a bit confused at what you are trying to say or deduce here, friend.
The term Elder God merely refers to mystical beings (gods / demon) that predate the more conventional gods in comics.
Put in simpler words, there are gods in marvel comics that are derived from actual popular religion Odin / asgardians (from Norse mythology), Zeus / Olympians (from greek mythology) etc. But there were mystical being that existed before them, and those were merely referred to as Elder Gods
Not exactly, most people refer to Elder Gods as the primordial creations of the Demiurge specifically.
So Elder God term is just a generic name, and not necessarily a description of power level
Well most people will use the term "Elder God" in such a way that specifies as such, much in the same term as Skyfathers and Hell Lords are used despite differing power levels.
Before Gaea gave birth to Atum, earth was filled with so called "elder gods"; and these gods would consume each other becoming more powerful. So not all elder gods are actually created equal.
Also Gaea being inferior to Dormammu that you mention isn't as cut and dryThere is , for example, Doctor Strange volume 1 issue 9; where Gaea defeats / banishes Dormammu
Dormammu wasn't as strong as he would be here given Umar was able to sap and drain him to nearly nothing when he entered Earth. While he had regained some of his energies he was nowhere near his best.
but in comics its never been the case of one being shown significantly superior to other
Don't agree, Gaea just isn't as impressive overall
@claymore1998: Also Gaea being inferior to Dormammu that you mention isn't as cut and dryThere is , for example, Doctor Strange volume 1 issue 9; where Gaea defeats / banishes Dormammu.
Context: Gaea also had help from Strange and Clea to do that, Dormammu wasn't fully manifested and not to mention that Umar had previously drained him, and while Dormammu did recover some his power later, it was far from his prime since handbooks still go as far as also credit Umar for her brother's defeat, so it indeed had a lot of effect on him.
I already addressed all this:
Gaea managed to defeat him on her own, a feat is a feat so it is also completely valid.
It seems you're an unknowledgeable fella as I first suspected, aside from condescending tone and hypocritical points as well. First off, Dormammu while extremely weakened was prior able to defeat/impression her and make Gaea his play-thing, Dorm then even proceeded to steal her Earth's energies to allow him being slowly reborn on the 616 without getting weakened by his oath(Embarrassing the Earth Goddness even more):
Gallery
Another misconception spread is that Gaea much later was able to miraculously break free from Dormammu's spell, which is a load of bullshit. The overrated goddness was actually SET FREE by Clea because she couldn't escape by herself during TWO UNFOLDED STORYLINES and so needed the help of others to accomplish such thing. Gaea was literally BEGGING AND SCREAMINGfor Clea to help her:
Dormammu also had all his powers stolen by Umar for quite a time:
Gallery
He later got them back, but this surely affected him by a considerable margin since Umar even got credited as helping in his later defeat:
Gaea then merged/channeled with Strange and Clea's energies, as well the energy of the entire planet(This is for those users who say that Dormammu stealing Gaea's earth energies let her weakened during their second fight, which is far from true since she drags the power from the planet again) :
Another thing, I would be fine with Gaea channeling the energy of the entire planet since it's complete part of her power-set according to the handbooks....But not merging her powers WITH Strange and most especially not with Clea, who's not an "Earth-Daughter" since she actually came from another realm/universe(The Dark Dimension) and by that wasn't born on Earth for her powers have any connection to Gaea. So yes! Gaea was amped on top of all! If not by Strange ANDClea, then only by Clea(Still an amp nonetheless):
And a funny thing is how Clea's enormously mystical potential/power has been reported in the same volume:
In fact, it's been officially confirmed that Clea's full might rival that of Dormammu and Umar:
So obviously Gaea draining her power matters a lot and just to finish with a flourish:
Dormammu wasn't even fully manifested on top of all. Maybe Gaea got some new cool feats when was together with the All-Mother(Feats while merged/amped by the Ark doesn't count IMO), but I'm not aware of any.
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