Stylistically speaking, Zoro has a clear advantage what with being a close + mid ranged fighter: Ulti is restricted to being the former so she’ll be hard pressed to deal with the flying sword attacks and if she lunges for an Ulti Meteor, Zoro would just counter with BRDT or DT. Furthermore, to my recollection she has no piercing resistance feats to survive Zoro’s serious named attacks so I concur with Enemybird.
Taking nothing away from Ulti, she’s powerful. Zoro is just a bad match-up for her.
This attack is enough to lay zoro lifeless on the ground,
No its not. Chapter 995 Nami says to Ulti - "no more headbutts" with a mark on her forehead clearly implying that Ulti had been hitting Nami with Multiple headbutts. Nami doesn't even have haki and Ulti was in hybird form and she wasn't even Ko'ed.
Luffy even implies after he lost that clash that he was holding back when he says that he underestimated her.
Dressrosa Zoro is pre enma Zoro. Zoro while nerffed with two swords managed to stalmate Denjiro who was quoted by jack to be above the tobbi roppo.
This attack is enough to lay zoro lifeless on the ground,
No its not. Chapter 995 Nami says to Ulti - "no more headbutts" with a mark on her forehead clearly implying that Ulti had been hitting Nami with Multiple headbutts. Nami doesn't even have haki and Ulti was in hybird form and she wasn't even Ko'ed.
Luffy even implies after he lost that clash that he was holding back when he says that he underestimated her.
Dressrosa Zoro is pre enma Zoro. Zoro while nerffed with two swords managed to stalmate Denjiro who was quoted by jack to be above the tobbi roppo.
So you're saying that Denjiro is stronger than Rooftop Base Luffy?
Base Ulti AP stalemates Rooftop Base luffy AP,
The same luffy that scared a Hybrid Kaido,
While Wano G4 Luffy can't even faze Base kaido with a barrage,
Rooftop Base Luffy has stronger AP than Wano G4 luffy, Imagine how strong his G4 hits than his base in which he needed to dealt against Full Zoan Ulti, Stalemating Denjiro is not note worthy as Base Luffy has stronger feats and acknowledge Ulti in which he needed a much more desired AP and Durability from G4 to actually hurt nor tank that Full Zoan Ulti,
Ulti damage soak and Durability is crazy than any Zoro's AP ever dream off,
Ulti was able to take thunder bagua and the Most powerful attack from big mom and still standing after that,
And afterwards she has still the speed to dodge Zeus first strike,
The same zeus that was tagging an FS G4 Luffy in the rooftop,
A Full Zoan Ulti has near Rooftop G4 lvl stats while BASE Ulti was stronger than Wano G4 Luffy, unless Wano Zoro scales near even Wano G4 luffy which is wank then Base Ulti still deletes that fodder zoro.
@socajunkie: bad match up puts her at a disadvantage but it doesn't mean she can't win. Especially since we know for a fact she's strong enough to pin him and he's too weak to KO for Long.
Dressrosa Zoro gets slammed into the floor and gets crushed.
Ulti could overpower a Post Udon Luffy, catch him, hurt him, and takes hits from him, etc even Page One could.
And as we saw Post Udon Luffy grew immensely since his Act One G4 Self which mind you is Katakuri > Cracker > Dressrosa G4 Luffy > Doffy > Dressrosa Luffy > Dressrosa Law >> Dressrosa Zoro.
Kaido's Beast Pirates are stat monsters with their ancient devil fruits and are not to be underestimated just as Luffy says.
@edgelord91: He has the battle IQ to exploit it and the AP to put her down through DS or SS given her lack of piercing/potency resistance feats.
She literally got a whole blown into her by big mom after getting layed out by Yamato. Zoro does not have the AP to put her down for more than a few seconds.
@edgelord91: He has the battle IQ to exploit it and the AP to put her down through DS or SS given her lack of piercing/potency resistance feats.
She literally got a whole blown into her by big mom after getting layed out by Yamato. Zoro does not have the AP to put her down for more than a few seconds.
Facts, Ulti durability is no joke as she tanks Yonko lvl attacks in a row and still standing, Zoro's poor AP has none of that caliber to put her down nor even tickle her Full Hybrid form.
This attack is enough to lay zoro lifeless on the ground,
No its not. Chapter 995 Nami says to Ulti - "no more headbutts" with a mark on her forehead clearly implying that Ulti had been hitting Nami with Multiple headbutts. Nami doesn't even have haki and Ulti was in hybird form and she wasn't even Ko'ed.
Luffy even implies after he lost that clash that he was holding back when he says that he underestimated her.
Dressrosa Zoro is pre enma Zoro. Zoro while nerffed with two swords managed to stalmate Denjiro who was quoted by jack to be above the tobbi roppo.
So you're saying that Denjiro is stronger than Rooftop Base Luffy?
Base Ulti AP stalemates Rooftop Base luffy AP,
The same luffy that scared a Hybrid Kaido,
While Wano G4 Luffy can't even faze Base kaido with a barrage,
Rooftop Base Luffy has stronger AP than Wano G4 luffy, Imagine how strong his G4 hits than his base in which he needed to dealt against Full Zoan Ulti, Stalemating Denjiro is not note worthy as Base Luffy has stronger feats and acknowledge Ulti in which he needed a much more desired AP and Durability from G4 to actually hurt nor tank that Full Zoan Ulti,
Ulti damage soak and Durability is crazy than any Zoro's AP ever dream off,
Ulti was able to take thunder bagua and the Most powerful attack from big mom and still standing after that,
And afterwards she has still the speed to dodge Zeus first strike,
The same zeus that was tagging an FS G4 Luffy in the rooftop,
A Full Zoan Ulti has near Rooftop G4 lvl stats while BASE Ulti was stronger than Wano G4 Luffy, unless Wano Zoro scales near even Wano G4 luffy which is wank then Base Ulti still deletes that fodder zoro.
I think your scaling is a bit off. Luffy's attacks began to work on Kaido because he started utilizing the training with Hygoro when he attacked Kaido. Those attacks had an effect on Kaido which prompted Kaido's reaction. There wasn't really any indication during his skirmish with Ulti that he was using that caliber an effort. After the head butt he even says, "I guess I underestimated her".
It's true that Ulti was able to hold base Luffy down but that doesn't mean she scales to Luffy's attack potency. He just couldn't bench press a dinosaur in base which apparently, he can do with G4, a form used to "wrestle massive beasts".
I also think you are overselling Ulti's durability overall. She was out cold after the attacks from Big Mom and Yamato. Which is exactly what should have happened. She got up later on but this fight is to the death or KO.
At the end of the day, you cannot scale Ulti above the scabbards "at death's door" because of Jack's statement. Her AP is very questionable after failing to KO Nami with multiple headbutts so even if she does catch Zoro, chances are it won't KO him. How many Named attacks from Zoro is Nami taking when Zoro was able to one shot Hawkins, Killer, Pica, etc.
Not even Denjiro could best Zoro while he was nerfed and he can kill Ulti at death's door.
@edgelord91: Zoro’s technical skill and training eclipses Ulti: he’s a swordsman who will target more vulnerable areas as opposed to Big Mom or Yamato. Moreover, this isn’t any sort of claim that Dressrosa Zoro has comparable stats to a Yonko or somebody able to combat one for an extended period, this is me highlighting the gross disparity in battle IQ and CQC skill Zoro possesses over Ulti, in conjunction with his stylistic piercing advantage, will enable him to get the win. Asura triples his AP and amps his speed utilising ACoC if he feels that’s sufficient, again supplementing his far and away superior adaptability. The Pica feat is factually more than enough to damage Ulti and she has no method of avoiding it given its AoE.
@socajunkie: and? None of that changes the fact she can shrug off hits more powerful than he can dish out or the fact Zoro in character would meet her head on for the most part.
@edgelord91: Said attacks weren’t to her vitals; therefore, being ‘harder’ isn’t as beneficial to your argument as you might think it is. Getting kicked in the thigh by an adult heavyweight UFC fighter is ‘harder’ than getting finger speared to the throat by an average teenager, but the latter is more damaging for reasons self-explanatory. Vital attacks, by their very nature are harder to ‘shrug’ off.
What’s stopping her is getting blown back by the kinetic energy of Zoro’s flying slashes. If she’s in the air when she attempts to jump on him, her strength won’t be a factor as she won’t be grounded. Zoro’s potency over time will kill her via attrition, even faster if he targets her vitals.
@edgelord91: Said attacks weren’t to her vitals; therefore, being ‘harder’ isn’t as beneficial to your argument as you might think it is. Getting kicked in the thigh by an adult heavyweight UFC fighter is ‘harder’ than getting finger speared to the throat by an average teenager, but the latter is more damaging for reasons self-explanatory. Vital attacks, by their very nature are harder to ‘shrug’ off.
Lol what? Yamato nailed her upside the HEAD and big mom cook her organs. Lol at Zoro targeting her vitals being a factor especially when he's much weaker.
What’s stopping her is getting blown back by the kinetic energy of Zoro’s flying slashes.
The fact that she's stronger (and much larger in her zoan forms) Zoro isn't sending her flying period. Even page one Ate a post udon elephant gun and post udon Luffy stomps this Zoro.
. If she’s in the air when she attempts to jump on him, her strength won’t be a factor as she won’t be grounded
The first thing she did was a jumping headbutt.
. Zoro’s potency over time will kill her via attrition, even faster if he targets her vitals.
She pins him like she did Luffy and bashes his skull in. He doesn't have the AP to bring her down and can't escape her grip.
Yep, with a blunt force attack. Zoro uses piercing which will be more effective over time.
‘and big mom cook her organs.’
As we’ve seen amongst other characters, namely Whitebeard, it's easier for OP individuals to carry on from other damage in comparison to piercing. Akainu cooked his chest internally, but the initial ‘piercing’ magma fist brought Edward to his knees. Blackbeard took a quake to the head with no lasting damage, but the initial pierce of Edward’s Bisento dropped him to the ground and caused him to panic. Doflamingo coughed up blood from Luffy’s Red Hawk (that cooked his innards) but was still in fine fighting condition; however, Law’s gamma knife (piercing) would have killed Doffy had the latter not stitched his organs. In extension, Doffy’s CoA-amped hand was bleeding from gripping Law’s sword, so it’s clear he would have been decapitated by Kyros had the soldier successfully connected with Doffy’s neck and not Black Knight’s, killing Joker. Big Mom warned Kaido to dodge Zoro’s strike but didn’t for any other attack. Linlin’s warning, in tandem with the examples provided, shows that piercing and cutting attacks are among the most deadly in One Piece, if not the most, from a consistency perspective. A cutting attack gave Kaido PTSD.
‘Lol at Zoro targeting her vitals being a factor especially when he's much weaker.’
My above assessment address your first clause here. I’ve already addressed your second in my prior post and my IRL analogy is sufficient for your second.
‘The fact that she's stronger (and much larger in her zoan forms) Zoro isn't sending her flying period.’
You’ve failed to address the physics aspect of my argument: being stronger is less of a factor if she’s airborne as Zoro’s dragon twister would only have to affect her mass and weight at the height of her leap, where the force of her jump is at its weakest.
‘ Even page one Ate a post udon elephant gun and post udon Luffy stomps this Zoro.’
Page 1 was grounded, therefore able to brace and is much heavier than Ulti. Your Luffy and Zoro statement is a red herring that ignores the mechanics of my argument in relation to Zoro and Ulti specifically.
‘The first thing she did was a jumping headbutt.’
Yep, refer to my near ad nauseam argument.
‘She pins him like she did Luffy and bashes his skull in. He doesn't have the AP to bring her down and can't escape her grip.’
I’ve acknowledged that if she pins him, she wins. I made a case for why I think that won't happen, citing Zoro’s superior skill, battle IQ, AoE/range, and why he has the AP to win over time. This is turning into an ‘I disagree/you disagree debate, so it might be best to agree to disagree, as I’m betting we’ll be going around in circles.
Yep, with a blunt force attack. Zoro uses piercing which will be more effective over time.
True but Yamato is much stronger than this Zoro.
‘and big mom cook her organs.’
As we’ve seen amongst other characters, namely Whitebeard, it's easier for OP individuals to carry on from other damage in comparison to piercing. Akainu cooked his chest internally, but the initial ‘piercing’ magma fist brought Edward to his knees.
That is not remotely comparable to an piercing attack and was explicitly more effective than an actual piercing attack(Squad stabbing him)
Blackbeard took a quake to the head with no lasting damage, but the initial pierce of Edward’s Bisento dropped him to the ground and caused him to panic.
He tanked both that proves nothing especially since the quake attack was AFTER.
Doflamingo coughed up blood from Luffy’s Red Hawk (that cooked his innards) but was still in fine fighting condition; however, Law’s gamma knife (piercing) would have killed Doffy had the latter not stitched his organs
Internal attack is not piercing and it's stated by law himself it ruptures organs.
. In extension, Doffy’s CoA-amped hand was bleeding from gripping Law’s sword, so it’s clear he would have been decapitated by Kyros had the soldier successfully connected with Doffy’s neck and not Black Knight’s, killing Joker. Big Mom warned Kaido to dodge Zoro’s strike but didn’t for any other attack
Literally baseless and kaido himself chose to dodge Red hawk in his stronger hybrid form.
Linlin’s warning, in tandem with the examples provided, shows that piercing and cutting attacks are among the most deadly in One Piece, if not the most, from a consistency perspective. A cutting attack gave Kaido PTSD.
Zoro's attacks were explicitly less effective than Luffy's. It gave kaido PTSD because he never got to find out who won. Doffy's own piercing attacks weren't much more effective on Luffy than his kicks.
‘Lol at Zoro targeting her vitals being a factor especially when he's much weaker.’
My above assessment address your first clause here. I’ve already addressed your second in my prior post and my IRL analogy is sufficient for your second.
‘The fact that she's stronger (and much larger in her zoan forms) Zoro isn't sending her flying period.’
You’ve failed to address the physics aspect of my argument: being stronger is less of a factor if she’s airborne as Zoro’s dragon twister would only have to affect her mass and weight at the height of her leap, where the force of her jump is at its weakest.
Ulti is much stronger than him AND larger. Physics is very much on her side nor does this change the FACT that stronger characters than Zoro struggled to knock her out. Piercing being more effective doesn't mean anything with a large enough gap and endurance exist.
‘ Even page one Ate a post udon elephant gun and post udon Luffy stomps this Zoro.’
Page 1 was grounded, therefore able to brace and is much heavier than Ulti. Your Luffy and Zoro statement is a red herring that ignores the mechanics of my argument in relation to Zoro and Ulti specifically.
And Zoro is nowhere near Luffy's level of AP. Point?
‘The first thing she did was a jumping headbutt.’
Yep, refer to my near ad nauseam argument.
‘She pins him like she did Luffy and bashes his skull in. He doesn't have the AP to bring her down and can't escape her grip.’
I’ve acknowledged that if she pins him, she wins. I made a case for why I think that won't happen, citing Zoro’s superior skill, battle IQ, AoE/range, and why he has the AP to win over time. This is turning into an ‘I disagree/you disagree debate, so it might be best to agree to disagree, as I’m betting we’ll be going around in circles.
Im not ignoring anything. All I've done is argue facts while you've argued semantics that don't matter IN UNIVERSE because of the power hierarchy and Zoro's actual fighting style. He is a closed range character and as Ulti is far stronger and has the necessary endurance she can very much afford to tank/blocks his hits while Zoro is as good as beaten once she gets her hands on him which WILL happen given his direct approach to fighting and the fact she can grab faster fighters than him.
She is, however, balanced out by Zoro’s AP being more focused on piercing, supplemented with far superior skill (compared to Ulti), and debilitating damage done over time. A stylistic edge Yamato didn’t have over Ulti and the luxury of a prolonged fight, respectively. If you think the sheer stat disparity Yamato has over this version of Zoro is large enough that none of what I said matters, then again, I suggest agreeing to disagree because I’m adamant with my stance.
Squard’s stab had no Haki and was delivered by fodder, yet Edward still coughed up blood. Marco’s concern that healthy Edward would have chosen to dodge is also telling. Whitebeard would have been dead had he let his neck get touched by Zoro’s Oni-Kiri, for example, due to the former’s poor durability to piercing attacks.
Tanking is taking minimal damage and barely being moved by an attack, neither of which is applicable to Teach in regards to the slash that spurted blood and knocked him on his ass.
Rupture in this context means to break or burst suddenly. That happened to Doffy because his organs were pierced by the GK.
Could you clarify what exactly is baseless?
Kaido dodged Red Hawk because it would be painful, as Luffy comments; this isn’t the same as Linlin fearing for Kaido’s life and screaming at him to dodge Zoro’s slash.
They were over a prolonged period of time. With examples like Linlin’s bellow to dodge and Dragon Kaido screaming in pain from Dragon Twister, it isn’t as cut and dry as you might think. The effectiveness of piercing over most other forms of damage has been high consistently throughout the series, which is most pertinent to my argument here: Zoro went for the throat against Kaido; therefore, he has shown he’ll target vulnerable areas against stronger foes, which Ulti is here. Doffy’s strings were still more effective than his kicks, even if the difference wasn’t big, so that still suits my argument.
Physics isn’t on her side when she’s met with a twister; she just has to carry her weight when she’s at the height of her jump. Moreover, I’ve discussed my stance on your'stronger characters’ point, so I shall not be going around in circles. As for your last clause, the large skill disparity multiplied by piercing’s effectiveness will be enough to overcome Ulti’s physical strength, in my opinion.
Can you prove how a Post-Udon Elephant Gun with a basic CoA is leagues ahead of Zoro’s AP while taking into account the blunt vs. piercing AP? What’s more, from a practical sense, Ulti won’t be able to do anything but keep getting blown back and taking damage, thus losing a battle of attrition.
Zoro is a close-to-midrange fighter with his ranged attacks; let’s not be disingenuous. While he starts out close range, he’s got the battle IQ to adapt his tactics once he realises CQC isn’t his best option. Tatsumaki is a counter-move; once Ulti leaps, Zoro might opt for that rather than blade locking.
She is, however, balanced out by Zoro’s AP being more focused on piercing, supplemented with far superior skill (compared to Ulti), and debilitating damage done over time. A stylistic edge Yamato didn’t have over Ulti and the luxury of a prolonged fight, respectively. If you think the sheer stat disparity Yamato has over this version of Zoro is large enough that none of what I said matters, then again, I suggest agreeing to disagree because I’m adamant with my stance.
Zoro using piercing damage is in universe not a big enough advantage to overcome a big enough difference in stats. Especially since Ulti has armament haki to defend herself.
Squard’s stab had no Haki and was delivered by fodder, yet Edward still coughed up blood. Marco’s concern that healthy Edward would have chosen to dodge is also telling. Whitebeard would have been dead had he let his neck get touched by Zoro’s Oni-Kiri, for example, due to the former’s poor durability to piercing attacks.
We've seen this tactic before with doflamingo. Endurance trumps damage method. And big mom frying his organs is objectively more severe than anything Zoro can inflict.
Tanking is taking minimal damage and barely being moved by an attack, neither of which is applicable to Teach in regards to the slash that spurted blood and knocked him on his ass.
He was still conscious and went on to fight sengoku shortly after with no signs of fatigue or weakness. He tanked. Ace and Luffy knocked him on his butt too😂
Rupture in this context means to break or burst suddenly. That happened to Doffy because his organs were pierced by the GK.
Which isn't what slicing or stabbing does which the anime makes clear. Still not remotely the same thing
Could you clarify what exactly is baseless?
Kaido dodged Red Hawk because it would be painful, as Luffy comments; this isn’t the same as Linlin fearing for Kaido’s life and screaming at him to dodge Zoro’s slash.
Big Mom told him to dodge for the exact same reason. Let's not forget Zoro's strongest attack in the same arc only managed to leave a scar and was explicitly less effective than Luffy's consequent punches. Zoro himself laments failing to knock kaido down.
They were over a prolonged period of time. With examples like Linlin’s bellow to dodge and Dragon Kaido screaming in pain from Dragon Twister, it isn’t as cut and dry as you might think. The effectiveness of piercing over most other forms of damage has been high consistently throughout the series, which is most pertinent to my argument here: Zoro went for the throat against Kaido; therefore, he has shown he’ll target vulnerable areas against stronger foes, which Ulti is here. Doffy’s strings were still more effective than his kicks, even if the difference wasn’t big, so that still suits my argument.
Piercing attacks are more effective but it's not remotely enough to be a deciding factor.
Physics isn’t on her side when she’s met with a twister; she just has to carry her weight when she’s at the height of her jump. Moreover, I’ve discussed my stance on your'stronger characters’ point, so I shall not be going around in circles. As for your last clause, the large skill disparity multiplied by piercing’s effectiveness will be enough to overcome Ulti’s physical strength, in my opinion.
Stronger and LARGER. And Zoro is more skilled true but it's not a massive gap and ulti is no slouch herself.
Can you prove how a Post-Udon Elephant Gun with a basic CoA is leagues ahead of Zoro’s AP while taking into account the blunt vs. piercing AP? What’s more, from a practical sense, Ulti won’t be able to do anything but keep getting blown back and taking damage, thus losing a battle of attrition.
Your joking right? Luffy being stronger or equal to Zoro is a well known fact (even Zoro himself has confirmed as such) and the straw hats as stated by Zoro get stronger with each subsequent arc with wano being a training heavy arc. Dessrossa Zoro< dessrossa Luffy< WCI Luffy< post udon Luffy. Zoro's piercing damage has never been that much more effective within his weight class to physical strikes and he straight up isn't doing anything close to maser canon cooking her organs which is factually worse.
Zoro is a close-to-midrange fighter with his ranged attacks; let’s not be disingenuous. While he starts out close range, he’s got the battle IQ to adapt his tactics once he realises CQC isn’t his best option. Tatsumaki is a counter-move; once Ulti leaps, Zoro might opt for that rather than blade locking.
And? Even IF he figures this out his ranged attacks are much too weak to do significant damage which will result in him trying CQC where ulti has him decisively beat with no way out. Ulti herself being a pure melee fighter can and will push for getting close. Ulti can shrug off stronger attacks than he can output while the same isn't true vice versa. How is Zoro winning in an endurance contest when she has the clear advantage in durability?
The Tobi Roppo really weren't all that impressive. Their story purpose is to be significantly weaker than Commanders. Ulti, Black Maria and Sasaki all lost to the lesser Straw Hats who don't even have Armament Haki. The Tobi Roppo are all more impressive than Doflamingo's crew, but Pica was beaten easily by Zoro anyway, with Zoro treating his Haki just as easily as he treated his stone giant.
I don't see Ulti taking some of Zoro's best hits while I can absolutely see an endurance monster like him surviving for a while.
1) The Tobi Roppo really weren't all that impressive.
Respectfully what series are you reading?
Page One could barely be phased by an Act 2 Base Sanji kick and later while Hybrid could overpower and hurt an Act 2 Raid Suit Sanji with a single swipe and take multiple hits from an Act 2 Raid Suit Sanji and be fine.
And that's just Act 2 feats not the raid and that's just Page One... the Tobi Roppo are not weak at all nor unimpressive in the story even Luffy's impressed with them when he meets with Ulti and Page One.
Ulti blitzes grabs and bodybag's Zoro nothing Zoro will do is gonna do much damage to her she's far too tough and powerful for him.
2) Their story purpose is to be significantly weaker than Commanders. Ulti, Black Maria and Sasaki all lost to the lesser Straw Hats who don't even have Armament Haki.
So what if they don't have haki, the Seraphim don't have haki yet they can fight Egghead Monster Trio and Yonko, etc. Point is haki as much as people like to think isn't an end all be all Franky beat Sasaki a haki user, etc.
The "weaker" Strawhats doing what they did ain't a dig against Tobi Roppo it just means they became stronger which they have.
3) The Tobi Roppo are all more impressive than Doflamingo's crew, but Pica was beaten easily by Zoro anyway, with Zoro treating his Haki just as easily as he treated his stone giant.
He still struggled with him a decent bit.
And I with this ^ haven't even really touched on Pica's stone powers (which is a large majority of his fight) this is just his basic stats being able to combat Dressrosa Zoro sword to sword for a while, take a 1080 pound pheonix and keep it going, and as per his statement regarding his haki he should scale above his golem as he's "invincible when infused with haki" compared to just his stone.
4) I don't see Ulti taking some of Zoro's best hits while I can absolutely see an endurance monster like him surviving for a while.
Page One (Ulti's inferior) could take a Post Udon Gear 3 hit striaght to the head and be relatively fine and earlier could combat an Act 2 Raid Suit Sanji as I showed above... Dressrosa Zoro ain't there yet.
There's plenty more I could touch on but I want this to be brief.
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