Marrok vs Grand Inquisitor

marrok is already better through scaling but we need to see more of him to properly gauge his level

@emmafrostxmen: I don't think Marrok's feat is significantly if any better than the 5th Brother's feat against Ahsoka on Malachor.

5th brother was amped. He got stomped by Maul.

Marrok wins.

Marrok due to scaling.

Either Ahsoka is rusty due to not having faced another force user in single combat since Vader or Marrok is that good. We don't really know yet. Its still worth noting that she did struggle against Elsbeth not long before so maybe she has infact declined.

Also I found this trailer where it appears they have another duel and shes grunting.

So yeh, he clearly is a challenge for her

https://youtu.be/8KzVO-gTz4A?si=Xb4hj9FMGev-wGaY&t=26

@makeorbreakit: Honestly, using the "logic" they use on this page, many will come to the conclusion that Ahsoka is at the level of an Inquisitor, instead of the Inquisitor being much more powerful than the others.

Grand inquisitor was obviously better than him during the empire era, however he's presumably grown quite a lot since that, but I doubt he's grown far beyond GI, as he has had no training since the empire was destroyed. So id say it would be a good fight, but marrok would win due to scaling.

Marrok didnt outright die (5th brother was stumbling around, losing footing/ran into an object) when he fought Ahsoka with the Seventh Sister. I'm pretty impressed his performance even eclipses the Seventh Sister. So yeah he wins and easily the GI sucks.

@makeorbreakit: grunting is a sign of effort or difficulty or both. for reference they grunt constantly in tennis matches but it’s not because they are struggling physically but because they are swinging with loads of strength and power. kind of impossible to say which is the case here considering it’s a new thing to have her grunt in combat as she hadn’t even done so against vader whom she was clearly having great difficulty with.

@makeorbreakit: marrok is just better than the other inquisitors. that’s how new characters get feats.

elsbeth is also a witch that utilizes the force. for reference talzin dueled mace windu in a 1v1 during the clone wars. not saying elsbeth is on the level of windu or talzin but i am saying the witches are incredibly fast and skilled. also once again she is a new character so she gets a feat by contending with ahsoka and not the other way around. ahsoka also had to hold back as to not kill her so she could get the information she needed.

Marrok bullies. Making Ahsoka struggle is far better than anything that GI has done.

@jedisympathiz3r: TFb he didn't do that much better than 7th. Tano just pulled out her Ult for her

She straining/baring her death just like she was vs Marrok

I would expect the Grand Inquisitor to win this fight. It would be a pretty even match however his prowess with the blade seems to exceed Marrok's, for now at least. However this can change rather quickly.

Marrok proved a match for Ahsoka in a mid-stake fight, however the 7th sister also managed to do that:

(6) Star Wars Rebels - Ahsoka Tano vs. The Inquisitors (Seventh Sister & Fifth Brother) [1080p] - YouTube

Now if you want to argue that Marrok can actually beat or contend with Ahsoka in a high-stake fight, this would change things up.

They will fight again later on in the show. If he manages to beat / tag or press her, I would say he could defeat the Grand Inquisitor.

The GI himself is meant to be quite formidable:

The Inquisitors should be able to deal with the majority of Jedi, especially in this time period. Probably in the Clone War they wouldn’t have done as well. The best Inquisitor probably is almost like Ventress. -- Dave Filoni, Rebels Force Radio

This is very high praise, as Ventress has done well against Master Kenobi and Anakin in the past and even proved a match for them simultaneously. In TCW adjacent material she even had a lengthy duel with senior master Mace Windu.

Filoni belives that Ventress is beyond his interpretation of General Grievous who, by cheating, has outfought TCW Obi-Wan Kenobi and smashed Season 5 Ahsoka:

http://uk.ign.com/articles/2012/03/21/star-wars-the-clone-wars-looking-back-at-season-4?page=3

"I still don't believe that, at this point -- one-to-one -- that Grievous could really take out someone like Ventress in a lightsaber fight. I mean, it's just me, but he doesn't have the Force. He can't wield it. I don't see how he can hope to be as proficient as a Jedi or a Sith could be fighting with a lightsaber, which is why he's always willing to dirty play at the end of the day."

"Yeah, it's in the movie. Mace Windu says, "General Grievous will run and hide, as he always does." He's an interesting character for all that thought. And obviously, you know, he's adept at using lightsabers, but I always thought his thing was fear. If you are afraid of the many swirling blades, then you'll parish staring at them. But if you can just focus through it, you can defeat that opponent "

I find this line of thinking to be rather questionable, however based on that I see no reason why he should not be able to replicate Marroks or the 7th Sisters feat.

It took a "force explosion", to take down the Grand Inquisitor in Star Wars Rebels, and even then, the GI held his own for quite some time and only lost once Kanan exploited the gimmick of his lightsaber:

Freddie Prinze Jr. :"That's where Force takes over, not the Jedi. The Force takes over. Kanan vs. theGrandInquisitor, that's Kanan releasing his fear and his attachment, and sort of being like water. This is a Force overpowering moment." "So for that moment between the two of them, that's a Force explosion. Kanan isn't controlling that, that's the Force dictating what's going to happen to him." Source: First Order Transmissions #197: Star Wars Rebels Finale Interview

Kanan's training is all around decent and the GI trashed him every single time before he finally managed to defeat him. In the words of Dave Filoni:

So I think it's just all about how we reveal Kanan. It's very different from Luke.I mean, on a basic level at this point he's so much better trained than Luke could ever be. It's just an interesting take on what are all these other people that have the Force doing? And how do we not have that interfere with the blinding light, the New Hope that Luke Skywalker becomes? Luke's mission in the Force is very specific. Learn to be selfless. Selfless enough to save your Father. To realize that you can forgive and redeem. And that's a bit different than where we're going with Ezra and Kanan for sure.https://www.slashfilm.com/533176/star-wars-rebels-interview-dave-filoni/

For now I favor the GI. It would be a pretty good fight however and we will see what the future holds.

@thecloudatlas:

GI was defeated by ESB Luke, who I don't think is Ventress tier. Unless of course, you upscale ESB Luke based on Ventress-GI scaling.

Edit: Filoni's also said that Mace is ''far far more skilled'' than GI.

@frozen: Luke Skywalker seems to take the Grand Inquisitor off guard in that comic. The GI himself preferred to gloat instead of killing Luke.

However another thing to consider is that, at least to my knowledge, the comic was not written by Dave Filoni, who himself thinks that "anyone on the council" could really kick Luke's butt.".

With Ventress herself having held her own against the orders best, the portrayl of the GI does not seem to align with what Filoni envisions for both characters,.

That said, EoTESB Luke was meant to be a match for TESB Lord Vader, with Vader only having an slight edge over his son and only cutting off Luke's hand when he was distraced in a high intensity bout.

This is at least what George Lucas envisioned at the time:

---Luke is more cautious, controlling his anger. He begins to retreat as Vader goads him on. As Luke takes a defensive position, he realizes he has been foolhardy. A quick sword exchange and Luke forces Vader back. Another exchange and Vader retreats. Luke presses forward. 	VADER 	Only your hatred can destroy me. Breathing hard, Luke jumps in the air, turning a somersault over Vader. He lands on the floor and slashes at Vader as the room continues to fill up with steam. Vader retreats before Luke's skillful sword. Vader blocks the sword, but looses his balance and falls into the outer rim of pipes. The energy Luke has used to stop Vader has brought him to the point of collapse. Luke moves to the edge and looks down, but sees no sign of Vader. He then deactivates his sword, hooks it on his belt, and lowers himself into the pit.

---Luke answers by rolling sideways and thrusting his sword at Vader so viciously that he nicks Vader on the shoulder. The black armor sparks and smokes and Vader seems to be hurt, but immediately recovers. Luke backs off along the narrow end of the gantry as Vader comes at him, slashing at the young Jedi with his sword. Luke makes a quick move around the instrument complex attached to the end of the gantry. Vader's sword comes slashing down, cutting the complex loose; it begins to fall, then is caught by the rising wind and blown upward. Luke glances at the instrument complex floating away. At that instant, Vader's sword comes down across Luke's right forearm, cutting off his hand and sending his sword flying. In great pain, Luke squeezes his forearm under his left armpit and moves back along the gantry to its extreme end. Vader follows. The wind subsides. Luke holds on. There is nowhere else to go.

---TESB script

"Luke moved agilely across the gantry and took refuge beneath a huge instrument panel to evade his pursuing foe. But Vader was there in an instant, his lightsaber thrashing down like a pulsating guillotine blade, cutting the instrument complex loose. The complex began to fall, but was abruptly caught by the wind and blown upward. An instant of distraction was all Vader needed. As the instrument panel floated away, Luke involuntarily glanced at it. At that second, the Dark Lord’s laser blade came slashing down across Luke’s hand, cutting it, and sending the youth’s lightsaber flying. The pain was excruciating. Luke smelled the terrible odor of his own seared flesh and squeezed his forearm beneath his armpit to try to stop the agony. He stepped backward along the gantry until he reached its extreme end, stalked all the while by the black-garbed apparition."– The Empire Strikes Back: Star Wars: Episode V, Donald F. Glut

"In the Empire Strikes Back it's the first time that, uh, the antagonist and protagonist actually fight each other. Uh, so that it is a very big fight, and, uh, Luke, now, has become proficient enough to be able to face Darth Vader. So it's a slightly one-sided sword fight where, uh, Vader has the advantage over him. Uh, Luke didn't know that Vader was his father for most, most of the, the fight, so that, what was happening is he thought he was fighting this bitter enemy, he was fighting as hard as he could." George Lucas

Insider #62: Fightsaber wrote:

"In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers."

"Skywalker is lured into the Dark Lord's sinister trap, but avoids being frozen and impresses Vader with his fighting prowess."

-The Ultimate Visual Guide

"Although he had been only briefly instructed by Yoda, Luke Skywalker showed great ability in the Force during his duel with Darth Vader on Bespin. He had enough strength to challenge Vader, but Luke was far too hasty."

-Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

@thecloudatlas:

Luke Skywalker seems to take the Grand Inquisitor off guard in that comic. The GI himself preferred to gloat instead of killing Luke.

GI is force pushed mid duel, so I don't think we can attribute this to being off guarded. Especially considering that GI explicitly says Luke was too strong for him, his own words: ''He was strong. So strong''. He is clearly no match for Luke's power by his own admission, despite being superior duelist.

However another thing to consider is that, at least to my knowledge, the comic was not written by Dave Filoni, who himself thinks that "anyone on the council" could really kick Luke's butt.".

Well we can't just ignore the comic and pretend it doesn't exist. If we take GL's vision of Luke being Vader level as early as ESB, then Luke's still going to be > GI. Because GI is capped under Vader.

As far as I'm aware, most canon sourcebooks on ESB have Vader demolishing Luke (there are a few in canon which align with the legends Fightsaber you posted, but the majority side with Vader). That said, if Luke of ROTJ is Vader's equal (which most canon sources indicate), that would still place ROTJ Luke as council tier and well beyond GI, which would reject Filoni's notion that Luke of ROTJ would lose to any council member.

Having said all this, I'm not actually opposed to the notion of ESB Luke being Ventress tier in canon. He has great force feats + a lot of hype statements. That said, I'm not sure if GI's showings justify Ventress tier placement. I'll have to look over them, but I can't envision GI beating the likes of Qui Gon.

@frozen: You are right, one has to consider all the different versions and visions of the Star Wars saga.

I really wonder how all of this will align, I don't think it is a good idea to mix the different approches, unless you want to focus exclusively on feats.

It might be a mistake to put so much emphasis on Dave Filoni. While he is one of the main content creators of DC Star Wars, after all he is just one person.

In the "Mando/Dave Verse" I would assume that the GI would beat Marrok for now, unless he is revealed to be much more potent and a real threat to Ahsoka which is very much possible.

Concerning your statment in regards to Master Windu, Mace Windu is one of the best Jedi out there, often regarded as the best jedi fighter period. I belive Filoni himself stated that he thinks he could have killed Sidious, but that is a topic for another time. He might not be aware of the fact that Ventress had a lengthy duel with him in TCW adjacent material. It would be interesting to see where he holds Ventress compared to someone like REBELS Maul imo :)

Ventress has held her own against an exhausted Dooku, dismissed Kenobi in seconds and outfought Season 4 Darth Maul and is stated to be a threat to Sidious himself in clone wars material, so I wonder where Dave holds her overall.

Filoni thinks that the Inquisitor would be "hard pressed in a battle" with council members. So this is better then what he thinks of Luke.

''But to the great many that he would've counter one might have pick up a lightsaber, or been like youngling or padawan that survived he would be more than a match for any of them. Remember the Jedi council if they would survived the Inquisitor be lot harder pressed in that battle.

"I would say someone like Mace Windu is far far far above the Inquisitor we've seen in Star Wars Rebels. But in this dark time when the light side is really suffering he is a fairly powerful guy. Especially for someone like Kanan, who kind of lack his own conviction and belief in his own ability at this point. If you do that you don't believe in yourself how can you fight with someone like the Inquisitor. He gets Force thrown he really gets thrown in that throw has much to do with Kanan's own lack of believe in himself as does the Inquisitor is pushing him. There is not a lot countering the Inquisitor in that fight. We thought it was important to show Kanan really struggling.''

@thecloudatlas:

Filoni likely holds the view that ROTJ Luke is inferior to Vader. However this view isn't shared by Lucas, who re-affirms ROTJ Luke as being = Vader (if not slightly superior). There's an infograph on Tumblr which compares GL's statements with Filoni, and there's a lot of disagreement. Not just on power levels, but on character too. For example, Filoni holds the PT Jedi as being responsible for Anakin's fall, whereas GL himself puts almost no blame whatsoever on the Jedi, instead placing the blame squarely on Anakin himself.

It might be a mistake to put so much emphasis on Dave Filoni. While he is one of the main content creators of DC Star Wars, after all he is just one person.

I would agree. His statements are useful, but if they're directly contradicted by showings/feats, then I would put the feats first. If ESB Luke has beaten the GI, then we have to accept that as what transpired. Rather than Filoni's take on the matter, which is contradicted by actual showings.

So my position is that statements and feats co-exist, but if they contradict, I'd favour the actual canon events rather than a statement. And if we get into the nitty gritty of statements, George's view of Luke is that he's Vader tier, which would override whatever Filoni thinks or muses.

For what its worth though, Filoni did say that ROTJ Luke with the dark side is > ROTJ Sidious. Which is a stance that I think many would take issue with.

@frozen: Well I think we agree then! Filoni is only important because of his involvement in so many of the new main line projects, again, he probably does not even know that the GI lost to Luke.

The STAR WARS Story group in general thinks that Luke is not that strong compared to PT Jedi, as jon favreau states that he thinks prime Anakin would beat prime Luke.

I think Favreu was asked about ''Prime'' Luke vs Prime Anakin under the guise of Mando Luke vs Anakin, but Mando Luke is nowhere near Luke's prime. The Luke of the sequels should be significantly more powerful than Mando Luke. In the recent Shadows of The Sith novel, GM Luke beat a sith spirit whose power is in Sidious realm.

I don't think story group have commented much on old man Luke, my guess is that he's probably viewed in the Yoda/Sidious realm, whereas Obi Wan, Anakin etc may be below (solely in the eyes of story group that is).

@frozen: The quote talks about prime Luke in general

I think it has to be Anakin, right?" Favreau told The Cyber Nerds. "I mean is has to be." Favreau then wanted to make it clear that he and Ikhinmwin were indeed comparing Anakin to Luke in the prime of their Jedi powers. "We saw a little bit of prime Luke with what we did, we alluded to it, but who knows what he's been off to. But Anakin faced so many more challenges. He was in his prime in a more dynamic period in 'Star Wars' history.'"

Read More: https://www.looper.com/1216512/the-mandalorians-jon-favreau-declares-that-anakin-would-defeat-luke-skywalker/

Mando is "a little bit of that"

@thecloudatlas: I think the "We saw a little bit of prime Luke with what we did'' would mean that he considers Mando Luke to be his prime/peak of his powers. The ''little bit'' refers to the little we saw of him. The article supports this, quoted below:

And Favreau is now on record when it comes to who is more powerful: the version of Luke Skywalker on "The Mandalorian" or Anakin Skywalker (Hayden Christensen) in his prime.

There's more than a decade gap between Luke of Mando and the bearded GM Luke in Shadow of The Sith. SOTS states that Luke has grown significantly more powerful over the decade and has him face a Sidious level being.

If we look at story group comments on older Luke, there seems to be a sentiment that his force projection feat is an ability never seen before by another jedi, which would indicate a level of mastery at the upper echelons.

I agree with your other points.

@frozen: Mando Luke might be Luke in his dueling prime. The Favaereau statement says that Anakin would probably best him in a fight, but not necessarily that Anakin was more powerful. I would guess that RotJ Palpatine and Yoda would lose in pure lightsaber fights with their RotS selves, even if they might have grown more powerful in the force. In Luke's case, he hasn't seen much if any live combat with other force users after RotJ, and by TLJ, he hasn't trained with the blade in years. In addition to that he's over the hill physically. Anakin would beat him in a duel, he'll, Kylo probably could have beaten TLJ Luke in a lightsaber duel.

(Also, isn't George Lucas on record saying that prequel era Jedi are generally more impressive than the force users we see in the OT? I know that a lot of the later source material contradicts that, but I remember a quote of his saying something like 'before TPM we've only seen old men, young boys and cripples fight'.)

@drachna:

Mando being duelling prime is just flat out contradicted by the new Luke novel. He is stated to have become more powerful and more skilled with a Blade over the decade since Mando era. Favreu also says "who knows what he has been up to" ~ ergo he has no idea how other writers are treating post ROTJ Luke and he has no qualms in admitting it. He's got next to no input or authority on the GM Luke closer to the sequels. In Shadows of The Sith (which is 12 years after Mando and 13 years before TFA), Luke defeated a being who is stated > ROTJ Sidious and duelled 9 dark side spirits simultaneously. He's also been honing his skills and we know he had exploits inbetween Mando and SOTS (for example, he fought Snoke, etc). His force augmentation, skill, force power etc saw linear growth.

He's laughably beyond Anakin overall by that period. Luke of TLJ is indeed out of practice and past his best. But that's not a knock on the Luke of Shadow of The Sith, who is more active etc. Also Yoda and Palpatine are not good examples, because they actively neglected lightsaber combat in the years following ROTS. Palpatine didn't see the need for a saber and Yoda physically declined. Neither of these things happened to Luke in the years following Mando. He grew more powerful in the force and honed his skills with a saber.

Lucas is on record for saying that but its utterly contradicted by Disney canon and not at all reflected by Disney's material.

Marrok

Maybe Marrok. We'll have to wait and see.

Still Marrok

@frozen: So SotS Luke > RotS Anakin > Mando Luke > RotJ Vader (?) = RotJ Luke > TLJ Luke in terms of deadliness with a lightsaber.

And RotJ Yoda and Sidious are perfect comparisons for TLJ Luke, given that they're at the peak of their force abilities, have long since declined with a lightsaber, and are about to die.

Marrok dies

Filoni being very consistent with the spinning saber being both the problem and the solution for the Inquisitors opponants.

Marrok gave Ahsoka another decent fight. I’m genuinely not sure if the GI could replicate that

They could literally have a prequel comic showing marrok stomping the grand inquisitor and people would still vote for grand inquisitor.

That's just how comicvine rolls.

GI wins. Marrok did about as well as 5th and GI is better than that

After watching Tales of the Empire, I'm gonna back Grand Inquisitor for now

Marrok

Well, Marrok has a bit of freedom here, for while his armour and weaponry are that of an Imperial Inquisitor, presumably he hasn't been an official member of that organization in many years -- it's always possible that he's grown more powerful and proficient since being subject to the Inquisition's hierarchy. The fact that he's apparently flowing with Nightsister magicks is also interesting, since that was noted by Dave Filoni to have bolstered the abillties of Darth Maul during the Clone Wars at least to some degree. You never know.

The safest bet would probably be the Grand Inquisitor, though. In all technicality, while Marrok fought well against Ahsoka Tano, the Fifth Brother and Seventh Sister performed similarly one-to-one. Not quite as well, sure, but the Grand Inquisitor would also outperform them. It is true that Marrok didn't abuse his multi-function weapon nearly as often as the other Inquisitors during the combat, which is another detail that might give him the edge over his former overseer. In the end, Marrok might turn out to have advanced beyond the Inquisitorius, but at the present, the Grand Inquisitor should prevail more often than not, at least through cunning.