What's so special about these two being together? I've seen many topics about this couple.

Have you ? I don't know, it works, it's different, it seems like something that could actually lead to interesting development, it was in the comics and both characters had great chemistry together......

Also, many people (including myself) are getting tired of the same cat and mouse game that Catwoman plays with Batman, not to mention how redundant the character have become. I personally no longer derive any enjoyment from reading the relationship between Bruce and Selina, and considering his only other option is Talia, you can see why many of us have been pushing for something new. Having the Zee/Bruce explored would be a great remedy for these problems.

Zatanna is really the only woman to love the bruce wayne side of Batman, unlike Selina or Talia. She makes him more human. Also, she's a great complement to his science -heavy methods and could totally add a different dimension to his stories.

It would be something new, and the 'best friends since childhood' thing would make this pairing even more plausible and pleasing.

It's cool because it's new and they have a past together they can share. One that didn't involve Batman at first. Besides It's a combination between Magic and Science.

I'm really happy to see the Zatanna love being spread around. I never thought it was that popular of a ship, but I'm glad to be proven wrong. Zee deserves much better than freakin' Constantine -___-

A question though, as I haven't kept up with the New 52 (like....at all), did they eventually re-introduce Bruce's and Zee's shared history and childhood friends background, or is it still retconned ?

all aboard the Batzanna ship

I'd imagine its because he's grim and sticks to the shadows, while she is more light-hearted and usually in the spotlight, its a bit like the Batman and Robin dynamic worked.

However the mix of Batman and magic is why it's not that plausible to me that these two hook up. Like Batman has a longstanding distrust of magic regardless of the form it takes, likely because he doesn't understand it, yet somehow he is supposed to be more than friends with a woman whose skillset is based there?
Now I could imagine Bruce and a magician falling for each other if they were of the same mindset with the magical elements, as in the magician being ok with Bruce not trusting her skills 100%... and I don't see Zatanna as one of that kind.

@outside_85: You do know that Zatanna made it clear that she had feelings for Bruce in the comics, which means that the fact that he dislikes magic is clearly not that big of an issue for her ? She made fun of it actually on more than one occasions.

Also, Bruce's issue with magic made sense at first, because magic is such an abstract concept to someone heavily invested in science and forensics, and the fact that you can't use magic to solve or prove a case in court probably didn't help. However, that trait was later flanderized into Bruce being in complete denial over magic, even when he faces it on regular basis, and is surrounded by people who utilize it. I mean Bruce used a magical spell once, taught to him by Zee herself, so the whole "Batman doesn't get magic" point should really be moot. He hates it because it complicates things, but he doesn't foolishly deny it.

Also, Zee is one of the people that Bruce trusts the most, even after the Identity Crisis fiasco. In fact, the reason why Bruce took Zee's betrayal so hard was because of how much he trusted her in the first place. He knew her since childhood, and later on during his training with her father. There is such a strong connection between the two, that the whole magic point shouldn't even be an issue, as Bruce calls for Zee's help whenever he faces a case with magical elements.

@enzo991: Yes, and thats her end of the equation... which as some pointed out was that she was interested in Bruce Wayne, not Batman... which isn't exactly unique. What is however is that Zatanna knows the other side of him as well. The problem is more that of Bruce being unable to completely trust her... and we all know that trust is a major issue for him.

"Batman doesn't get magic" point isn't as moot as it may sound or look like. He knows it's there, he gets the basic mechanics of 'say word, stuff happens'. But like most of the scientists in DC, he doesn't understand why it happens, and I imagine the bizarre logic thats often employed by magicians often escapes him. At heart however, I think Bruce's problem with magic is that the users are as mysterious and enigmatic about themselves as he is as Batman, and often equally dishonest with the people around them, but (to him) not because of the greater good in mind.

I have to say that with the regard to ID Crisis, I think Bruce also took it as hard as he did because above all else, he started to doubt whenever or not his mind was his own and because he couldn't count on the stuff he remembered as being what he thought they were. That it happened to be Zatanna that did it was just salt in an already considerable wound. As for his reliance on her... he sometimes calls on Jason Blood if it's needed.

@outside_85: I think it's actually pretty unique. She's probably the only person to understand both sides of Batman, both Bruce and the Bat, which makes Zee stands out considerably compared to everyone else. She knew him in pretty much all phases of his life, and Bruce trusts her more than the majority of people in his life. The fact that their relationship survived the Identity Crisis incident is a testament to that.

I think you're reading too much into Bruce's dislike for magic. I believe there was a throwaway line about how Bruce hated magic, because he never understood how Magicians did their tricks when he was a child, but that's pretty much it. I don't think he's petty enough to have something against all Magicians. He dislikes magic because it doesn't make sense in his world and the way he works, but he recognize its existence and realizes that it's not his area of expertise. Definitely not a thing that would make a relationship between Zee and Bruce impossible. It all goes back to how you choose to emphasize Bruce's different personality traits, like how many people flanderize Bruce's trust issues and paranoia into these crippling issues, despite him being showed to be very reasonable for most of his written history.

Of course Bruce felt helpless and vulnerable as a result of the mind wipe, it didn't have to be Zee who did it to make Bruce feel that way. But as far as Zee/Bruce are concerned, the fact that it was Zee who did it wounded Bruce deeply, he felt such a huge sense of betrayal duo to how much he regarded and trusted her. Which goes to show you that the fact she's a Magician who deals in magic wouldn't have an effect on their relationship. It never did before, so why would it now ?

Yeah, maybe he didn't call her in every single instant, but it was made clear that Bruce had Zee on speed-dial for Magical emergencies. I also believe that Zee lives and does most of her work in or very near to Gotham, so that helps too.

@enzo991 said:

Indeed.

I've been reading more about Zee and her relationship with Bruce was something unique to both characters. She's much better with than with some other bastards like Constantine( Something that I couldn't agree more) and I would like to see both of them together again if possible.

Hey now! Haha. Okay, so their relationship wasn't exactly healthy and they're not very good together, but it did make for some interesting stuff.

But yeah... I have always liked the idea of her and Bruce. More than Constantine, where being alone works so well with his character.

@laylah said:

Yeah girl let's spread the word. I agree that if you knew nothing about Zee and Bruce, you wouldn't assume they had any history together, but then you learn they are childhood friends and share a lot of history, and it all starts making sense, and becomes very intriguing. Let's hope that DC will listen for once :/

I hope Constantine rots in hell. He wasn't content being a terrible character, but had to go and ruin one of my favorite female heroes in DC. The fact that the bastard casually calls her Zee in the New 52, when she and Bruce treat each other like strangers, really stung me deep. I swear DC will be the death of me.

I've always hated it

I don't see how he ruined her (easily one of my favorite female heroes as well) considering they've had a connection and relationships of sorts for decades. The New 52 did damage her however, with the whole altering of both her history with Batman and Constantine.

And he has never been a terrible character, he's not the greatest person (there's a difference). He's the quintessential flawed antihero. Which is great for him and his stories but when it involves someone who is not in such a way... bad things will come of it. He's going to do something selfish or screw things up, end up hurting the person he's with. This itself can make for an interesting dynamic to read. It's just a pain if you want them to be all sunshine and bunnies because you like the character. But actually the balancing act that resulted with their relationship actually worked well, for some time (which is all that could ever really come of it).

This is part of the reason I like the idea of her and Batman more, because it has those long repressed feelings as well as potential issues. But Batman being who he is will benefit as a character from through any of the struggle. Where with Constantine they'd either be in the way or become a casualty of who he is, something I don't know if I'd want with Zatanna more than what happened already (leading to their falling out).

@jrupert1 said:

*Sigh* I agree :( I mainly hate Constantine's because they had to entangle Zee of all people in his bull****. I understand Constantine's character, but his bastardy never appealed to me, although I admit I prefer my main characters flawed, but I prefer Bruce's type of flaws over Constantine. I just don't get why anyone puts up with him, least of all Zee.

Yeah, I dislike him because he's a terrible person, but I admit he's a complex character. I just don't think Constantine works well with the extended DC universe. He works much better as a stand alone. I don't think I've read much of Zee and Constantine together, as I found the idea repulsive solely based on principle, and they just looked wrong together to me :/

THANK YOU for pointing that out. Yes Bruce will benefit A LOT of such a relationship. Zee herself might not have as much to gain as a character since she doesn't have as many personal issues as Bruce, but they have a great dynamic, that could actually result in big character development. That's my issue with most pairing in DC, they're safe and have no effect on the characters involved. Zee is one of the few characters that can disarm Bruce in a way that no other character was shown to do, and that is a huge unexplored side to Bruce that Zee can help uncover. She also fits quite nicely with Gotham and Batman's supporting cast, I mean she's pretty much an honorary member of the Batfamily, at least prior to the New 52, and she deserves the exposure. However knowing DC, they'll always stick to the safe choice to preserve their precious status quo -____-

@enzo991: Yeah girl let's spread the word. I agree that if you knew nothing about Zee and Bruce, you wouldn't assume they had any history together, but then you learn they are childhood friends and share a lot of history, and it all starts making sense, and becomes very intriguing. Let's hope that DC will listen for once :/

Yup.

I don't understand why some people like Bruce with characters such as Selina, Diana or Talia when Zee had a far better chemistry with him than all of them together. Their relationship brings interesting elements to the Batman's lore and could be very well explored by DC if they weren't so stubborn.

@jrupert1: Hey now! Haha. Okay, so their relationship wasn't exactly healthy and they're not very good together, but it did make for some interesting stuff.

But yeah... I have always liked the idea of her and Bruce. More than Constantine, where being alone works so well with his character.

Very few, friend.

Constantine is a cool character in general and Hellblazer was an amazing series, but only when Constantine is separated from the extended DC universe as Enzo pointed out. His New 52 series was quite mediocre and his relationship with Zatanna even more so.

@laylah said:

I............actually like Bruce and Diana too :/ I agree that Selina and Talia are pretty bad. Selina started OK, but she way more than overstayed her welcome, and Talia is just terrible. Diana however has a lot of history with Bruce too, and they have their relationship from the JL/JLU TV show going for them, and they have a lot of chemistry whenever they're together.

While Zee/Bruce has a special place in my heart, I can't deny that Diana too can be a great relationship if done correctly. This isn't helped by the fact that the DCEU seems to be heading in the a direction of a Diana/Bruce pairing, and if that happened, we can kiss any chance of Zee/Bruce goodbye for the foreseeable future. Personally, I'll take anything that's not Selina or Talia at this point :/

Well, even as a person who doesn't think the couple is that great or that it could possibly work, it is somewhat unique. Zatanna's a powerful magic user, which stands in direct contrast to the more technology-based Batman, who uses strict rules of logic to govern how he operates in the world. Zatanna has the power to defy and break that logic. She's also a character who often knows Batman and Bruce Wayne. Whereas some love interests, like Talia, only know Batman or Bruce Wayne respectively. This provides her with the opportunity to learn more about the man as a whole and to connect with him on a deeper level. Though this isn't to say that any of his other romantic partners care about or love him any less. Zatanna's personality is often contrasted pretty heavily by Batman's. I mean, the picture you used in your post shows this off perfectly. Zee can be bright and playful, whereas Bruce is usually super serious. The bright character then bringing the serious one of out his/her shell is a classic and full of potential. A similar dynamic often works between Superman and Batman in all honesty. And since the characters operate in such different worlds you can naturally have a relationship between the two of them lead to each character being featured in new, different kinds of stories.

@laylah: To be fair, plenty of character's New 52 comics have been mediocre (or at least ended up that way). It is a shame it happened to him. But there's more to his connection to the greater DCU than just what's found there. And Zatanna's appearances in Vertigo Comics were usually interesting, and those always dealt with Johnny.

@jrupert1: Yeah, but didn't these "connections" to the DC verse only appear after the New 52 ? I haven't read a lot of Constantine and Hellblazer to be honest, but in what little I read before the New 52, I remember seeing no obvious ties to the rest of the DC universe. Of course that changed when DC decided to have Constantine hook up with Zee and kill her father XD

@enzo991 said:

I don't personally despise Bruce having a relationship with Diana, but my preference will always be ZeeXBruce. She's a great character and one of my favorites now, so that must be why I prefer Zatanna over Diana.

Remember the days when Selina was actually a good character? Writers these days seem to hold some grudge against her to make her completely out of character most of the times.

@laylah said:

I totally get you. I'm just trying to be a realist, as Zee/Bruce seems so unlikely at this point, that I don't want to get my hopes up. I love both Zee and Diana personally, so I have nothing against Diana as a character. I do despise what they did to her in the New 52 however.

To be fair, the New 52 pretty much ruined all characters, including Catwoman. Still, I don't hate Selina as a character (at least prior to the New 52), I just didn't think her "relationship" with Batman was ever interesting. She never brought anything unique to Batman's character, and so I found the entire relationship pointless. She's more interesting on her own in my opinion. Yeah, it sucks that she gets written badly more often than not, but I wish DC would at least not shoehorn her into Batman's stories if they have no intention to even try with the two.

It's unique for sure, and if Paul Dini is handling it, why not. Otherwise, I'd rather they not pair these two characters.

Well Constantine and Zee have had a history since Swamp Thing back in the 80s. She has appeared in Hellblazer in the 90s and he in Zatanna: Come Together. Both were also in Books of Magic, The Spectre, etc. So there were definitely connections well before the New 52.

@jrupert1: Interesting. Gotta do some research on that I guess. I still think Zee and Constantine is a terrible relationship :P

@enzo991 said:

You don't really need to think it, since a running gag with John Constantine is that he's a terrible boyfriend. For example, back when him and Zatanna were a thing in the 80's and a bit of the 90's, he was also concurrently dating another woman. I can't really recall much beyond that, except that they ended up breaking up not so well, and then became friends again down the line.

@orangebat said:

Yeah and Zee deserves much better than that. Even regardless of any romantic relationship, I don't understand why DC felt the need to destroy the friendship between Bruce and Zee. She was one of Bruce's closest friends and allies, and he trusted her a great deal even after all that happened between them. It's like DC set off to destroy all of Bruce's relationships with the N52, which is mind boggling to be honest.

Does he even have an interesting side to him as Bruce Wayne, it seems like that's more of just an act, and he's just Batman and nothing else.

@2cool4fun: Yes I believe he does have an interesting side as Bruce Wayne, but that's not all. I personally don't subscribe to the "Batman is the real person and Bruce Wayne is the mask" interpretation of Batman. I find it too simplistic. In my opinion, both Batman and playboy Bruce Wayne are masks. The real Bruce lies somewhere in between, and very rarely shows himself. You can ascertain that from the many stories where Batman is forced to face his deepest desires. He doesn't like to be Batman, but he NEEDS to be Batman. He feels that his work as Batman is a repayment of a debt, the fact that he was spared that night when his parents were murdered, and a way to live up to their example in protecting and defending the city they loved. That's why he forces himself into the Batman mask, and keeps anyone out of his life, because he's afraid of finding happiness, and losing his drive for the mission as a result.

Deep inside however, no matter how much he tries to deny it, Bruce yearns for happiness same as anyone else. Bruce is scarred yes, but he's definitely not this unfeeling machine that many people choose to interpret him as. Case in point, during the "Torment" story arc of the Superman/Batman, we saw his interactions with the New Goddess of Love Bekka, who was both attracted to Bruce, and had Bruce attracted to her, because of the thick walls he built around himself to prevent any happiness from seeping into his life, so that he can continue being Batman. Basically, Bekka's power work by unearthing your buried emotion and desires, so if Batman was the "real" Bruce, he shouldn't have any deep seated desires to begin with, as the "mission" is all that matters to Batman.

In another instant, Bruce was shown his deepest heart desires by a piece of Kryptonite (long story), and in it he saw himself with his parents alive, and interestingly enough, Zatanna as his lover/girlfriend, with Bruce as Batman no less. That's why many people want a different love interest for Bruce, one that can connect with all sides of his character, in order to allow for further examination of the REAL Bruce Wayne. That's where Zee enters the picture. She knew Bruce during his childhood, during his Batman training, and finally after he became Batman. She's been there through it all, and you can clearly see from their interactions how different Bruce is around her, and how much he values her. It's such a waste to not only let all the build up that their relationship got go to waste, but also destroy their mutual friendship that was very unique among all of Bruce's relationships. Such a waste :(

@enzo991: Well I guess you have a point, but tbh the only time I have ever seen Bruce Wayne being shown any actual personality was in Batman TAS. Every comic I've read so far that is not an origin or him having amnesia, either never shows Bruce Wayne, or just doesn't give him any personality, outside of learning how to be a father to Damian.

@2cool4fun: Well that's unfortunately the level of quality we've come to expect from Batman's writers. Batman is such a strong a multi-faceted character, that even when the writers don't do that good of a job with him, you still end up with an at least decent story. Batman is so popular and so marketable, that DC seems to be deathly afraid of trying anything new with him, or even attempt to further explore his character, for fear of losing sales.

The Batman TAS and the Timmverse in general should be the standard for writing when it comes to DC comics, even though it was family oriented, and yet DC have never been able to match its quality with their comics, despite the wider audience they target. It's sad really.

That's why Paul Dini's (the main writer of the Timmverse) run on Detective Comics and Streets of Gotham was so great. It brought the great writing to the main Batman comics, and it was both light and mature, without being the grim dark Batman books that DC has been flooding us with for the past 6 years. Incidentally, that was also where the whole Zee/Bruce thing started, so you can see why some of us are really attached to the idea.

@enzo991: Wait so they also first started the relationship in the Animated universe? I thought the only relationships they created ( and made the main stream audience think are canon ) were Batman x Batgirl, Batman x Lois Lane & Batman x Wonder Woman

@2cool4fun: They first introduced Bruce's and Zee's shared history in an episode of Batman TAS. However, their relationship was not introduced until later in Detective Comics, during Paul Dini's run (a great run btw), and Zee continued to be a regular cast member in all of Dini's runs on Batman, ending with Streets of Gotham.

Bruce/Lois was just a ploy on Bruce's part to find more about Clark, and Batman/WW didn't go past flirting (although I loved it personally). The only actual relationship in there was the Bruce/Barbara, and that pretty much ended with TAS, and only cryptically referenced later on during Beyond.

I'm not, infact in the last few years I've come to detest cross franchise romances, a love interest exists to further one characters story only and Zatanna cant further Batman's story,not even a little bit. It feels cool as long as we imagine them making love or something but in what Batman comic will Zatanna ever feel proper and not tacked on? or Wonder Woman for that matter?

I'd rather a writer never tackle this mess and leave it where it is. Some flirting or will they/wont they in a JL book is the only thing I can get on board with.

@entropy_aegis: I thought Zee was pretty great in Detective Comics and Streets of Gotham. She didn't feel forced, and her interactions with Bruce fleshed both of their characters out, but of course that was cut short, but I think there's a lot of potential there. I find myself on the exact opposite side on this. For starter, I look at the DC universe as a one whole, so having Zee in Batman books isn't "cross franchise" to me. You can't segregate the books like that, when the characters appear, interact, and influence each others all the time.

Also, I believe that whether "cross franchise" love interests work or not, depend on the character in question, and it only seem like a big deal when dealing with the core Justice League characters, and the Trinity especially. Meanwhile, many of the sidekicks, Titans, and other superhero teams don't seem to have that problem or associated stigma.

I agree however, that it IS a slight risk to take (if it doesn't turn out well it won't stick), but it all depends on the writers. But Batman has not only been quite monotone as far as his character is concerned for the past few years, he actually regressed in some aspects since the N52 started. I think Bruce especially could use an overhaul to his love interests, like having a love interest who's not evil or a crook, because that automatically means Batman will remain absolutely static throughout the whole thing.

Bah, I don't feel like prolonging this post any further, as I've gone through my reasons for wanting a new love interest for Bruce a lot over the last few days. I understand your stance on not wanting to "open this can of worms" with Batman, as DC has a horrible track record with handling relationships (just remembering the N52 SMWW makes me shudder), but I think we've been stuck in a rut for far too long not to try anything new. And believe me, Batman will survive anything at this point, and his love interest (be it Zee or Diana) deserve the exposure they'll get, so I doubt any lasting effect will happen if things don't pan out.

What are some love interests you have in mind for Bruce?

Now I understand this topic..

I dont really have any, or atleast someone I want to see Bruce seriously shipped with. His love life has been examined to the point that it's gonna be hard to cover new territory. But heh I'll give it a go, villain wise I want Bats to have some sort of hook up with either Ivy or Shiva or maybe a new Nocturna. Civies are a no go, I just Smith to finish his Silver story though.

As for fellow superheroes it's Black Canary because

Thanks to BOP she's been part of the Batman franchise already. Her best friends are Babs and Huntress, her adopted daughter had a League connection, they mostly operate from Gotham, square off against mostly Bat villains etc.

Her backstory and history has been tied to Gotham for decades.

They have a familiar bat/bird theme.

She can work in Batman's world.

With the first 3 in mind it baffles me to see her pushed to GA whom she owes nothing, has no thematic resonance and doesn't intersect with in terms of backstory. It's a text book case of nostalgia driven story that has treated Canary like crap, admittedly part of me just wants that to happen to spite Arrow fans and finally break Canary away from GA once and for all.

I don't know any Arrow fans that care about Black Canary on the show. Unless you mean Green Arrow fans as in the comic book character, that's a whole different matter.

Batman in a relation ship, is always bad, I found that in his best stories he never needs a Romantic relationship.

He should just stick to no strings attached/one night stands lol

Interesting. I would totally like to see Shiva and Bruce no matter how brief. I never thought BC would be a match for Batman.

Lolz How come you hate Arrow fans?

What no.

There is still some part of me that believes he can have someone in his life.

That was mostly a joke but the truth is he's never going to get a permanent love interest unless it's an Elseworld

I know the What no part was meant to be a joke =P

Yeah, sadly he will never have a permanent love interest. A fan can hope tho...probably wouldn't come true but a fan can hope.

@black_arrow: @lxlgiftedlxl: I love watching Arrow fans grasping straws, the reaching has reached comical proportions.

@lxlgiftedlxl said:

Nah, dude's living the life.

Why shackle yourself to one woman, when you can just have several female friends to chill out and fool around with sans the boyfriend/girlfriend stuff? That's like the best arrangement ever.

@entropy_aegis said:

I knew I liked ye, entropy.

Good point about GA too, BC is kind of a weird pairing for him.