So there is this ongoing debate on whether the Potara Fusion is stronger than the Fusion Dance, and who is stronger between Gogeta and Vegito. A lot of people claim that they are about equal, which in my opinion is outright false. This blog aims to clear up all the misconceptions, and state why Vegito is superior to Gogeta by a substantial margin. Also, power chains will be included throughout the blog for references.

This blog will bring forth two key points:

1. The Potara Fusion is infinitely superior to the Fusion Dance in terms of power.
2. Vegito would trash any transformation of Gogeta (SSJ, SSJ2 or SSJ3).

• Potara Fusion between Goku and Vegeta is way stronger than the hypothetical Fusion Dance between Goku and Mystic Gohan

It is established that by fighting SSJ3 Gotenks and later absorbing their powers, Super Buu is completely familiar with the fusion dance and the power it has. That was how he managed to absorb Gotenks, to hide for 1 hour because he knew thats when Trunks and Goten could fuse again.

When Goku confronted Buutenks, Buutenks expressed his confidence that even with Goku and Mystic Gohan fused using the Fusion Dance (which was his interpretation of Goku and Gohan fusing, when in reality they were trying to fuse using the Potara, one that Buu had no knowledge about), he would destroy both of them - this is stated both in the manga and anime. Yet, the Potara Fusion between Goku and Vegeta enabled Vegito to stomp Buuhan - who is even stronger than Buutenks and is the strongest incarnation of Super Buu.

Bear in mind that at this point, Buutenks' inherited Piccolo's intelligence, and Piccolo is known to be able to accurately predict the outcome of fights assuming he knows the gist of his own strength and his opponents, so Buutenks' confidence of his own superiority over the hypothetical Fusion Dance between Goku and Mystic Gohan is credible.

Put this into context. Mystic Gohan is significantly stronger than Vegeta, yet the hypothetical combined fusion between Goku and Mystic Gohan would be much weaker than the Potara Fusion between Goku and Vegeta - when Vegeta is weaker than Mystic Gohan. And this would make the hypothetical fusion between Goku and Mystic Gohan much stronger than Gogeta. This is one reason why the Potara Fusion is verifiably superior to the Fusion Dance.

A common misconception is that the fused being is based on the individual with the weaker power, since the stronger being has to lower their power to match their counterpart (as part of the counterargument that Mystic Gohan has to drastically lower his power to match Goku's). This is false. It is only part and parcel of the Fusion Dance, for two beings to be completely even in every regard, and there is no canonical evidence that proves the fused being is based off the individual with the weaker power. As such, the hypothetical Gokhan is leagues above Gogeta in power.

Vegito > Gokhan (Hypothetical) > Gogeta > Gotenks

• The Potara Fusion takes into account the Rivalry boost that the Fusion Dance does not have

The Potara Fusion between Goku and Vegeta is stated by King Kai to have a huge rival boost - something that the Fusion Dance does not have.

As the scan shows, the Potara takes into account the rivalry boost that the Fusion Dance does not, and considering that Goku and Vegeta were rivals ever since their bloody bout during the Saiyan Saga, and Vegeta's main drive all along was to surpass Goku. This speaks to an intense rivalry that further amplifies the power of the Potara that the Fusion Dance does not have - which is evident since SSJ Gogeta would lose to base Super Buu (which I will explain later), but SSJ Vegito stomped Buuhan, the strongest incarnation of Super Buu.

TLDR: There is no canonical evidence that proves that the Fusion Dance has a rivalry boost.

However, the rivalry boost only serves to further widen the already massive existing gap between the Potara Fusion and the Fusion Dance. The Elder Kai mentioned that the Potara is already noticeably superior to the Fusion Dance even without the rivalry boost.

• post-HTC SSJ Gotenks is not far behind SSJ Gogeta in power

Gotenks is very important in this because he is formed through the fusion dance between Trunks and Goten.

Before any training in HTC, Goten and Trunks demonstrated a lot of potential, being able to transform to Super Saiyans without any formal training.

SSJ Goten could give SSJ Adult Gohan a run for his money before he could even learn how to fly.

As seen by the scans, pre-HTC Goten was already pushing an FPSS Gohan to his back foot and gave him a very hard time in their sparring session - ending up cornering Gohan and forced him to fly.

SSJ Trunks managed to score a hit on a pre-powered up SSJ Vegeta during their training. Vegeta was visibly struggling to dodge Trunks' blows and was amazed by his son's power.

Likewise, it dosen't look like Vegeta was having an easy time dodging pre-HTC Trunks' punches to me, when he expressed full confidence that his kid was a plaything to him before Trunks started attacking.

Goku placed a lot of faith in the boys and gave them the responsibility of defeating Majin Buu instead of himself, showing that the boys had a lot of potential. Gohan speculated that Goten could easily surpass him if he wasn't careful. If Gohan was superior to Goten by a huge margin, he would be effortlessly dodging all of Goten's punches - and clearly he had trouble with it. As such, pre-HTC Goten is hardly behind Gohan in power of the same transformation.

Vegeta >> pre-HTC Trunks, Goku > Gohan > pre-HTC Goten

After their training on HTC, Goten and Trunks improved massively. They unlocked the SSJ3 transformation skipping SSJ2 meaning that individually, they became significantly more powerful and closed a huge gap between them and Goku/Vegeta, to the point that the kids wouldn't get outright stomped by the adults of the same transformation (though they would still lose easily).

Goku said that he and Vegeta would get stomped by base Super Buu in the manga, this means that SSJ3 Goku and SSJ2 Vegeta combined woud easily lose to Super Buu. Yet SSJ Gotenks post HTC managed to hold his own against a suppressed Super Buu - and I don't see SSJ3 Goku replicating that feat.

Vegeta > post-HTC Trunks, Gohan = Goten

Super Buu > post-HTC SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Majin Buu

Since the kids closed a considerable gap between them and Goku/Vegeta, it is safe Gotenks is not far behind Gogeta in power of the same transformation. Though SSJ Gogeta would still beat post-HTC SSJ Gotenks handily, he isn't stomping, and it speaks volume. Since Super Janemba got stomped by SSJ Gogeta, and SSJ Gotenks wouldn't, this places SSJ Gotenks fairly above Super Janemba in terms of power.

Super Buu > SSJ Gogeta > post-HTC SSJ Gotenks > Super Janemba > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Majin Buu

That being said, SSJ3 Gotenks would stomp SSJ Gogeta, given the immense power difference between a SSJ and SSJ3. As such, as I said earlier, Super Gogeta would lose easily to Super Buu. According to the Daizenshuu battle power guide, SSJ3 = 8x SSJ, but realistically the gap is significantly larger than SSJ than just 8 times.

We have seen constant times throughout DBZ the immense power difference between a Super Saiyan and a Super Saiyan 2, and a Super Saiyan 2 and a Super Saiyan 3. For example, Perfect Cell, who is noticeably stronger than FPSS Goku, got destroyed by SSJ2 Gohan. Kid Buu, who fought evenly with SSJ3 Goku, outright stomped SSJ2 Vegeta in a fight. There is a significant power difference between SSJ3 and SSJ - meaning that SSJ3 Gotenks is way, way stronger than SSJ Gotenks by a substantial margin.

To reiterate, Super Buu can easily compete with SSJ3 Gotenks while SSJ Gogeta is only a fair bit stronger than SSJ Gotenks. How exactly is SSJ Gogeta ever on base Super Buu's level, never mind Vegito, who is infinitely superior to Buu?

SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu > SSJ2 Gogeta > SSJ2 Gotenks > SSJ Gogeta > SSJ Gotenks > Super Janemba > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Majin Buu

Hypothetically, SSJ3 Gogeta should be slightly below Mystic Gohan's level (because Gohan stomped Super Buu in a fight, and a hypothetical SSJ3 Gogeta isn't). At best, they are on par.

Mystic Gohan >= SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu > SSJ2 Gogeta > SSJ2 Gotenks = SSJ Gogeta > SSJ Gotenks > Super Janemba > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Majin Buu

• Conclusion

TLDR:

- Vegito (PF) > Gokhan (FD) > Gogeta (FD) > Gotenks (FD)

- Potara Fusion has rival boost, Fusion Dance does not.

- The adults acknowledged the kids to have a lot of potential, and Goten was not far behind Gohan in power. Having the kids underwent HTC training that made them significantly more powerful, it does not take much to understand that SSJ Gotenks is not far behind SSJ Gogeta in power.

Adding everything up, and we have this:

SSJ Vegito >>> Base Vegito (anime only) >= Buuhan > Buutenks > Mystic Gohan >> Buuccolo = SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu >> SSJ Gogeta > post-HTC SSJ Gotenks > Super Janemba > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Majin Buu

It is clear that SSJ Gogeta is sorely outclassed by the majority of characters in the fusion saga.

This goes to show why Super Gogeta is vastly overrated, and why the Potara Fusion is way stronger than the Fusion Dance in terms of power. Fusion Dance is never stated to have a rival boost, and Goten/Trunks are not far behind Goku/Vegeta following their training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, making SSJ Gotenks not far behind SSJ Gogeta. It means that Gogeta is never on Vegito's league in terms of power.

EDIT: Removed hypothetical characters such as SSJ3 Gogeta, SSJ2 Gotenks to conform with the updated rules of disallowing nonexistent characters. Also, Base Vegito standing has been modified and made sure that his appearance is only seen in filler, a non canonical section of the official DBZ episode of the Fusion Saga.

I didn't read the OP, but y'know what would be really cool?

If Goku and Vegeta fusion danced to form Gogeta. But wait, we're getting there. And then if Goku and Vegeta put on the Potara Earrings to form Vegito. AND THEN if they both fusioned to form Gogito!

But wait, it gets better! And then the two of them could power-up to not Super Saiyan God 2, but Super Saiyan God 3! And on top of that perform a Kaio Ken x1000!!!!!!!

It's like the fantasy of every pre-pubescent Dragon Ball fan come true! It would be like "pew pew pew pew" and "bam bam bam bam", and this Super Gogito would beat up every baddie and destroy universes with his farts!

Of course, agree with it.

Potarra > Dance (better)

Vegito > Gogeta (slightly stronger)

Gogeta looks cooler though…

@bluesilver: Yeah, and he has a really cool finisher - that earned him a particularly large fanbase.

@noobsnowman: Do you know that I can post a longer post proving why you are wrong and why GOGETA >>>>>>>>>>>> GOTENKS

@apex_pretador: Go ahead, please do. For someone so ignorant on DBZ, kindly educate me on how Gogeta is amazingly powerful - because right now you are making the Gogeta fanbase look terrible with your invincible ignorance.

@prophetvivec36: The hypothetical Potara Fusion would still be potent, but nowhere to the degree of between Goku/Vegeta, since Goten and Trunks did not share a long history of rivalry that would spike up the power of the fusion.

@noobsnowman:

I won't go on off topic & focus on my post. A few scans to begin with:

Clearly, according to goku, fusion is really OP. According to him, fusion is a huge boost.

He said that if weaklings can become strong enough to fight buu, then why can't kids do the same?

He is unimpressed by the full power of kids. If they were anywhere near Super vegeta level, he'd be impressed.

These 2 scans prove that it is the fusion which gives the kids power to beat buu.

Now some calculations:

We know that fat buu is weaker than SS3 goku, while evil buu is stronger than fat buu.

Now, let SS3 goku = 100 Y, fat buu = 85 Y, evil buu = 100 Y

So, super buu = Fat buu + evil buu

= 85 Y + 100 Y = 185 Y

SS3 gotenks was "somewhat" stronger than Super buu:

SS3 gotenks = 200 Y = 2x SS3 goku.

So, we know how incredible fusion is. Krillin actually thought that base gotenks (pre) may pull it off vs buu. Piccolo was slower than Base gotenks. So, base gotenks must be >= PC level. Remember that even SS adults are nowhere near this level. So, this proves that fusion gives huge boost.

Simply put, it is like this:

SS gotenks (pre) >> Majin vegeta > Base gotenks >= FP PC > SS goku > SS Vegeta > CG Goku > SS gohan > SS goten

OR,

SS gotenks (pre) >>> SS2 goten (hypothetical)

SS gotenks (pre) > SS3 goten (hypothetical)

So, by same logic, SS Gogeta > SS3 goku

Or, SS2 Gogeta > SS3 Gotenks > Super buu

Now remember that this is WITHOUT TAKING RIVAL BOOST INTO ACCOUNT.

Going back to what kaioshin said:

"Fool, they are not this strong because of potara, they are this powerful because THEY ARE FUSED. They are 2 of the strongest beings in the universe, and the fact that they were rivals, they are even stronger."

He specifically says that this power is not because of potara, but because this is goku-vegeta fusion.

So, if they weren't rivals, they would be much weaker, maybe weaker than Buu-han. Remember that old kai specifically states that the rival boost is NOT because of potara.

So, SS Vegetto < Buuhan WITHOUT RIVAL BOOST

Or, SS Vegetto < 2x Super buu

Now, this means that:

Super buu < SS3 gotenks =< Super Vegetto (no rival boost )

And, Super buu < SS3 gotenks =< SS2 gogeta (no rival boost)

_____________________________________________________________________________

Now, for potata fusion boost, we have kaioshin & kibito.

Kaioshin = Stronger than SS Goku, weaker than SS2 Goku, close to SS2 gohan.

Kibito = Stronger than most mortals. Most likely stronger than base saiyans.

Kibito kai = Weaker than SS3 goku.

See what potara did there? Now this means that potara hardly increased his power 3x. So, potara is NOT massively stronger than dance.

____________________________________________________________________________

Goku said that his fusion with gohan >>> Gotenks buu. Remember that this dance fusion will be WEAKER due to the fact that they need to make their ki exactly equal. In other words, gohan needs to lower his ki to SS2 goku's level.(Goku knows SS3 is unfit for mortal universe)

So, SS2 Goku-gohan = SS2 gogeta (no rival boost) >> Gotenks buu

Why equal to gogeta? because goku = vegeta. Gohan needs to lower his power to goku level to fuse anyways.

Now, remember that gotenks & gohan were both close in power. So, gohan buu is only slightly stronger than gotenks buu.

_____________________________________________________________________________

Conclusion:

SS2 gogeta >> Gohan buu >> Gohan > SS3 gotenks (WITHOUT RIVAL BOOST)

SS Vegetto < Gohan buu (Without rival boost)

This gives: Since SS2 is a 2x boost, Vegetto is ATMOST 1.4x stronger than gogeta.

Old kaioshin specifically says that potara is not the reson for vegetto being so strong, but the reason is that it is fusion of goku & vegeta & they are rivals. So, gogeta will also get the rival boost.

Assuming same rival boost, we know that:

SS Vegetto > SS gogeta >>>> Gohan-buu >> gohan > SS3 gotenks > Super buu > SS gotenks (post)

Or:

SS gogeta >>>>>>>>> SS gotenks (post)

Oh, and one more thing, Remember that small, unnoticeable changes for goten / trunks were huge gains for gotenks.

@apex_pretador:

Clearly, according to goku, fusion is really OP. According to him, fusion is a huge boost.

He said that if weaklings can become strong enough to fight buu, then why can't kids do the same?

I fail to see what's your point here. Fusion Dance is powerful. Cool. How does it make it stronger than the Potara, or Gogeta being so much stronger than Gotenks? Quit your red herring.

He is unimpressed by the full power of kids. If they were anywhere near Super vegeta level, he'd be impressed.

These 2 scans prove that it is the fusion which gives the kids power to beat buu.

He is unimpressed because it is not enough to defeat Buu, and I already addressed that pre-HTC SSJ Gotenks would lose to Majin Buu.

Your point is that the Fusion Dance is what gave the kids the power to combat Buu, which isn't the point here, because the point is Gogeta is not that much stronger than Gotenks. Likewise, the adults individually would also get stomped by Super Buu, so that point is moot. As such, again, quit your red herring.

So, super buu = Fat buu + evil buu

= 85 Y + 100 Y = 185 Y

Proof that Super Buu = Fat Buu + Evil Buu?

So, if they weren't rivals, they would be much weaker, maybe weaker than Buu-han. Remember that old kai specifically states that the rival boost is NOT because of potara.

So, SS Vegetto < Buuhan WITHOUT RIVAL BOOST

There is no way to prove this.

Super buu < SS3 gotenks =< Super Vegetto (no rival boost )

And, Super buu < SS3 gotenks =< SS2 gogeta (no rival boost)

Red Herring. Why are you discussing no rival boost here when it is part and parcel of the power boost the Potara has?

SS gotenks (pre) >>> SS2 goten (hypothetical)

SS gotenks (pre) > SS3 goten (hypothetical)

So, by same logic, SS Gogeta > SS3 goku

Or, SS2 Gogeta > SS3 Gotenks > Super buu

Just because post-HTC SSJ Gotenks would beat a hypothetical SSJ3 Goten does not mean SSJ2 Gogeta would beat SSJ3 Gotenks. Your premises have absolutely zero correlation to the conclusion. You are at multiple illogical fallacies now. I'm also amazed how you managed to pull out some numbers out of the blue without backing it up with canonical information.

Now, for potata fusion boost, we have kaioshin & kibito.

Kaioshin = Stronger than SS Goku, weaker than SS2 Goku, close to SS2 gohan.

Kibito = Stronger than most mortals. Most likely stronger than base saiyans.

Kibito kai = Weaker than SS3 goku.

See what potara did there? Now this means that potara hardly increased his power 3x. So, potara is NOT massively stronger than dance.

You should know well that this is Potara Fusion on Vegito VS Fusion Dance on Gogeta being discussed here, so again, quit your red herring regarding Potara Fusions with other characters.

Goku said that his fusion with gohan >>> Gotenks buu. Remember that this dance fusion will be WEAKER due to the fact that they need to make their ki exactly equal. In other words, gohan needs to lower his ki to SS2 goku's level.(Goku knows SS3 is unfit for mortal universe)

Just because a being has to lower their power level to match their counterpart dosen't make the fused being overall weaker. It's the requirement for the Dance, it was never a drawback to the fusion, unless you have a quote for it.

Now, remember that gotenks & gohan were both close in power.

No they aren't.

SS2 gogeta >> Gohan buu >> Gohan > SS3 gotenks (WITHOUT RIVAL BOOST)

All of a sudden, besides trying to falsely claim that SSJ2 Gogeta is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, you now say that he is now stronger than Buuhan, who is leagues above SSJ3 Gotenks?

Old kaioshin specifically says that potara is not the reson for vegetto being so strong, but the reason is that it is fusion of goku & vegeta & they are rivals. So, gogeta will also get the rival boost.

The Elder Kai was referring to specifically the Potara, he has no knowledge of the Fusion Dance. There is no evidence that the Fusion Dance has this. You are trying to prove a negative right here.

Either bring up canonical information that the Fusion Dance has a rival boost, or do everyone a favour and step out of this thread.

Remember that small, unnoticeable changes for goten / trunks were huge gains for gotenks.

It makes zero sense for two beings that are super weak to fuse and become a very strong warrior, it does not take a brain to understand that individually they have to become very powerful themselves for the fused warrior to become stronger.

You're using illogical fallacies multiple times in your arguments, so you're doing terribly here.

Gogeta gets stomped.

imo, vegitto is vastly superior to gogeta, but ssj2 gogeta could beat vegitto. Also, about the "buuhan>ssj3 gogeta" that is false because majin buu's thinking of fusion is his form of fusion, which is the weakest of the three. So ino ssj vegitto>ssj2 gogeta>buuhan=?base vegitto>ssj gogeta

Also, we don't know how strong sthe body guard of supreme kai is, but we know that supreme kai is stronger than piccilo but weaker than ssj2. My guess is that he is ascended saiyan level.

@sowhatsup435:

majin buu's thinking of fusion is his form of fusion

No, its the Fusion Dance. Super Buu fought Gotenks, saw them defuse, and later absorbed the full extent of their powers. He thought every fusion is like that because he only knew one form of fusion. If he knew about the Potara Fusion beforehand, he wouldn't sound so confident. Then he was proven wrong when he witnessed Vegito's powers.

ssj2 gogeta could beat vegitto

How? SSJ Gotenks is only marginally behind SSJ Gogeta in power, meaning that SSJ3 Gotenks would beat a hypothetical SSJ2 Gogeta.

how strong sthe body guard of supreme kai is, but we know that supreme kai is stronger than piccilo but weaker than ssj2. My guess is that he is ascended saiyan level.

That's another thing altogether, because the Elder Kai expressed supreme confidence that Goku, if he were to fuse with someone, would easily crush Super Buu without needing to transform into a Super Saiyan. That is discounting the rival boost.

OK, but can Vegito destroy souls with a blinding sphere of rainbow-colored ki?

No?

Then I think we know who clearly is the superior fusion fighter.

@scouterv: .....Stardust Breaker is a technique unique to Gogeta himself. Just because he has a cooler finisher does not mean he can harm Vegito with it, at all.

A Kamehameha can instantly destroy an opponent that is significantly weaker, but will have no effect on an opponent that is significantly stronger. Same concept here.

@noobsnowman: How about we solveit in a CaV?

We have 3 choices:

1. SS3 gotenks vs SS Gogeta
2. SS Vegetto vs SS2 Gogeta
3. Base Vegetto vs SS gogeta

I'll represent gogeta.

You can choose whatever option you like.

@apex_pretador: With someone who constantly uses illogical fallicies to distort information? Don't waste my time.

Calling me out for a CAV instead of countering my points is a pitiful way to stroke your ego.

Gogeta gets stomped in all three rounds.

A) I see no reason to trust what buutenks says, he was cocky enough to say that after absorbing gotenks and piccolo, NO MATTER WHAT, he's at his strongest

Chapter: 499 (DBZ 305), P11.1

Boo: “…What do you think, Gohan? My strategy succeeded safely. Look, isn’t it magnificent? This is a moment that will never appear again, no matter what the future may hold: the birth of the strongest majin.”

B) Hypothetical fusion dance of goku and Gohan = gogeta

Gohan has to lower his power to match goku's base, and vegeta base = goku base at this time

Goku didn't know about potara being so powerful that he could possibly beat buutenks in base, so the only thing he has to go off of is fusion (and he suggests ssj for buutenks)

Ssj Gokhan (fusion) = Ssj Gogeta > buutenks

C) Rival Boost is NEVER stated to be exclusive to potara, elder kaioshin even makes a point to scold kaioshin for believing that it's just the potara. The fusion of goku and vegeta is what causes the fusion to be so overwhelmingly

powerful NOT potara.

D) Gohan wasn't taking goten seriously, besides, by goten's own admission, he couldn't hit Gohan at all. Trunks hit a vegeta who had spent an unknown amount of time training. They didn't skip ssj2, you see him go ssj2 as he's going ssj3 in front of piccolo. Trying to say how powerful the boys got individually is useless considering the smallest gains they make can lead to large gains for their fusion, and it's never said how powerful the boys got individually.

@dbzk1999:

he was cocky enough to say that after absorbing gotenks and piccolo, NO MATTER WHAT, he's at his strongest

Cocky as in confident, right? He has Piccolo's intelligence, you know.

Hypothetical fusion dance of goku and Gohan = gogeta

Gohan has to lower his power to match goku's base, and vegeta base = goku base at this time

Just because a being has to lower their power level to match their counterpart dosen't make the fused being overall weaker. It's the requirement for the Dance, it was never a drawback to the fusion, unless you have a quote for it.

Rival Boost is NEVER stated to be exclusive to potara, elder kaioshin even makes a point to scold kaioshin for believing that it's just the potara. The fusion of goku and vegeta is what causes the fusion to be so overwhelmingly

powerful NOT potara.

Seriously? I'm going to repeat what I said in the earlier comments.

The Elder Kai was referring to specifically the Potara, he has no knowledge of the Fusion Dance. There is no evidence that the Fusion Dance has this. You are trying to prove a negative right here.

Gohan wasn't taking goten seriously, besides, by goten's own admission, he couldn't hit Gohan at all.

Of course he wouldn't, Gohan was stronger than him. But was Gohan effortlessly dodging his punches? Clearly not.

Trying to say how powerful the boys got individually is useless considering the smallest gains they make can lead to large gains for their fusion, and it's never said how powerful the boys got individually.

It makes zero sense for two beings that are super weak to fuse and become a very strong warrior, it does not take a brain to understand that individually they have to become very powerful themselves for the fused warrior to become stronger.

@sowhatsup435:

How do you know for sure he was thinking of the dance.

Because he only knows about the dance? He literally fought Gotenks of every transformation and later absorbed their power, and there is no proof at that point in time that he knows any other form of fusion.

ssj3 goku was stronger than fat buu

Not by much.

Also,

fusion between the kids (who are combined, weaker than piccilo)

Base Gotenks post HTC isn't weaker than Piccolo.

made them match him

SSJ Gotenks >> SSJ3 Goku

double their strength

I can agree if its pre-HTC. Post HTC, then no.

then it would be pretty obvious that if they fuse their ssj3 form can beat him, even through he absorbed mystic gohan

Wait, what? Did you just say that SSJ3 Gotenks can beat Buuhan?

POPO was able to catch a few of trunks punches in his ssj form.

PIS. Popo should never be that powerful.

@mysticmedivh: oh yeahhhhhh sureeee, gogito the strongest.

How about we just take into account that Movie 12 likely took place in an alternate universe where Goku killed Majin Buu on earth, right? So that right there removes the levels of power the Z-Fighters had to face in the forms of Super Buu/Buuhan. Additionally, SSJ3 Goku was stomping Fat Janemba, and fought relatively well against final form Janemba whereas he was afraid to even engage Super Buu with the help of Vegeta. With that info we know that Janemba is probably a little stronger than Majin/Kid buu, but definitely much weaker than Super Buu. Im not going to get into calculations, and no official multipliers have been given for any of the fusions anyways, so this is where one has to use objective, fair, logical reasoning....

1. SSJ Gogeta stomped final form Janemba so we can at least say he's much stronger than him

2. However, final form Janemba was someone SSJ3 Goku could hold his own against

3. Fusion Dance being "much stronger than the sum of its parts" is pretty much all we have to go on from the manga as far as battle power goes

4. Goku was afraid to fight Super Buu with the help of Vegeta i.e Super Buu is stronger than the two of them combined

5. Gogeta is stronger than the sum of his parts i.e Goku and Vegeta fighting together < Gogeta

6. With this in mind, I think it's fair to assume SSJ Gogeta is roughly Super Buu level at least

He may be a stronger, but we don't have much else to go on. Anyways, even giving myself a little room for error, SSJ Gogeta should still get wrecked by even the likes of Mystic Gohan. To compare him to Vegito is simply ridiculous :/

@buttersdaman000: Hmmm...

SSJ Gogeta is roughly Super Buu level at least

Fair enough if you think that way, but I just don't feel that Gogeta is that much stronger than Gotenks of the same transformation. The key reason is because I don't think SSJ Gogeta is like 8-10 times stronger than SSJ Gotenks.

SSJ Gogeta would still beat SSJ Gotenks easily, but its hardly a stomp. At best, SSJ Gogeta is twice as strong as SSJ Gotenks, which is still a noticeable power difference. Which is why I believe SSJ3 Gotenks, and by extension Super Buu, would stomp SSJ Gogeta.

Your 1-5 points are correct, though.

I wish there was a "like" function on CV.

Why not? Goku and Vegeta are much stronger than Goten and Trunks individually so it makes sense that their fusions reflect that. Unless you think Goku/Veget was roughly only two times as strong as Goten/Trunks??

@buttersdaman000: Before any training in HTC, Trunks was able to give Vegeta a hard time dodging his punches, as per the scan Vegeta wasn't dodging Trunks' punches with ease. Same for Goten when sparring with his elder brother.

After their training in HTC, while their focus was strictly on the fusion, both of them improved immensely (it make zero sense for the fused being to be so powerful while the fusees are so weak), skipping SSJ2 and unlocking the SSJ3 transformation on Gotenks - a massive improvement which is unheard of at that period of time. As such, individually Goten and Trunks closed a huge gap between them and Goku/Vegeta, though they aren't on the same level yet.

Again, I'm not saying that SSJ Gotenks would give SSJ Gogeta a hard fought battle, he wouldn't. He would go down relatively easily, but its not a stomp.

@dbzk1999: @sowhatsup435:

It is useless to argue with him. I proved why SS gogeta (WITHOUT EVEN CONSIDERING RIVAL BOOST) is wayy stronger than SS3 gotenks, but in return, he was using words like "ignorant, fallacy (while himself setting perfect example of straw man fallacy), red herring, facepalms" in his reply because he had no counter to me.

This is the same person who thinks that cell could destroy the entire universe.

Old kaioshin himself told Kibito-kai , who thought that vegetto was too strong due to potara that

Fool, they are strong NOT because of potara, but because THEY ARE FUSED, two of the strongest beings in the universe. Not only that, they are even stronger as they are rivals.

@apex_pretador: LOL. No you didn't.

You are using red herrings because your cases are irrelevant to the argument. Why would I counter points that are completely irrelevant to the main point?

cell could destroy the entire universe.

Yeah, I had that opinion one month ago. You mean opinions cannot change? I corrected myself long ago. You bringing out historic opinions shows how desperate you truly are.

Fool, they are strong NOT because of potara, but because THEY ARE FUSED

Here is what just happened.

APEX: The Fusion Dance has a rival boost!

Me: Where is the evidence that proves it?

APEX: I don't have evidence! Prove to me that the Elder Kai was referring to the Potara!

You have no proof that the Fusion Dance has a rival boost. As such, I accept your concession.

@noobsnowman: There is nothing to prove otherwise.

Old kaioshin knew about dance fusion. He specifically told goku that it is useless against gotenks-buu BECAUSE he won't stand there & let them dance.

There is nothing to prove that buu's absorptions , which are storing a being into buu pods, are anything more than additions. So, there is nothing to prove that super buu is any more than good buu + bad buu. This is less than 2x SS3 goku.

There is no way that SS gotenks (post) is 7 times weaker than super buu. He was outclassed, but not completely. He was actually less outclassed than nappa vs base goku or piccolo vs imp. cell (post)

@apex_pretador:

There is nothing to prove otherwise.

Nice deflection. You are trying to prove a negative here. No canonical information that proves that the Fusion Dance has a rivalry boost = it does not have one.

Old kaioshin knew about dance fusion.

Okay, I found the scan that proves that the Elder Kai has knowledge of the Fusion Dance.

But he said that the Potara Fusion already beats the Fusion Dance in terms of power even without the rivalry boost (that is specific to the Potara)-he didn't recommend Goku to fuse with Vegeta at all during that point.

He specifically told goku that it is useless against gotenks-buu BECAUSE he won't stand there & let them dance.

Buutenks stated that a hypothetical dance fusion between Goku and Gohan wouldn't work against him, but he wanted to get the job done quicker.

There is nothing to prove that buu's absorptions , which are storing a being into buu pods, are anything more than additions.

Proof that it is an addition? There are various quotes that indicate Piccolo's pessimism towards the boy's fusion (when post HTC SSJ Gotenks beats SSJ3 Goku), and Goku's indication that Super Buu is far too strong for him in his SSJ3 form. There is a massive, massive power difference between Super Buu and SSJ3 Goku.

There is no way that SS gotenks (post) is 7 times weaker than super buu. He was outclassed, but not completely.

Except that Super Buu can tear dimensions while SSJ Gotenks cannot, and Super Buu got eventually bored of Gotenks. SSJ Gotenks was completely outclassed.

@apex_pretador:

This only proves that potara > Dance, not potara >>> Dance.

It proves that the Potara is superior to the Dance, he didn't specify to what degree. I already stated loads of evidence why the degree is proven to be massive.

Goku's words >>>>>>>>>>>>> Buutenks words

Buutenks has Piccolo's intelligence, and Piccolo is known for entering fights he knows he would win or lose.

Goku said that dance fusion beats Buutenks, and old kaioshin did not disagree.

Scans please. And even if its true, its the Fusion Dance between Goku and Mystic Gohan, not Goku and Vegeta.

Prove that it is NOT an addition

EDIT: You're right, it's addition. When Super Buu loses all his absorbees, he reverts back to Kid Buu. I'll respond to it later.

Why "assume" that it is more than addition when other absorptions are not?

Because that there are evidence that proves so.

DBZ, 25% difference in power is huge (cui vs vegeta), raditz can no sell 924 pl KHH, but is hurt by a headbutt at 1307, etc. Nappa is worried about goku at 5000, implying that he's around 5000, but he just punches away masenko at 2800 from gohan.

As characters grow stronger in power, 25% difference matters less and less, this concept only matters until the end of Frieza Saga. For example, Full Power Frieza at 120 million PL can hold his own very well against SSJ Goku at 150 million PL.

2x is a HUGE gap in DBZ.

I already pointed out that SSJ Gogeta is 2x the power of SSJ Gotenks. Never did I say that SSJ Gotenks would give Gogeta a tough match.

Plus, goku couldn't use SS3 at full power in living world, but only in otherworld.

Yes he can, but it would deplete his power at an overwhelmingly fast rate, so he didn't.

there can't be a freaking 7x difference in the two

Maybe Super Buu suppressed his power by that much? Perfect Cell suppressed a huge portion of his power against Super Vegeta, same concept here.

it is possible that minimum power required to break dimensions is around 80% of super buu,

It is possible, but there is no way to prove this.

@apex_pretador: Essentially, Super Buu is basically the evil version of Majin Buu, as this time it is Evil Buu that is in control instead of Good Buu.

So we have this:

Evil Buu + Good Buu (in control) = Majin Buu

Evil Buu (in control) + Good Buu = Super Buu

So to sum it up, its not just Super Buu = Evil Buu + Fat Buu. It's when evil is in control of Buu rather than good, and that spiked his power up to insane levels.

@apex_pretador: Please reread the comment. I edited it long before you replied.

By the way, lowering the power does not make the fused being overall weaker, it's just the requirement of the fusion dance. There is no proof that the fused being is based off the weaker individuals power. Unless you have a quote for it.

@victordoom: error 404: fallacies not found.

@victordoom: lol why bump this mess?

@victordoom: why the hell did you bump it?

@johncena69swag: It's not a mess, it's perfection. 3 months later, and nothing has changed. It is still the correct answer.

Anyways, the blog has been edited to remove speculation because the rules are edited to disallow the use of hypothetical characters. (Eg. SSJ3 Gogeta)

He's not talking about my posts, but about your posts.

@apex_pretador: I'm aware.

lol. I wasn't serious

TLDR

Err no this is far from perfection. With just a quick scroll I can spot countless errors and this entire thread is based off a false premise. However, due to previous experience with you I'm not about to engage in a debate. It seems apex predator already got most of the point across anyway.

Did he just compare Gotenks to Gogeta? Did I just see someone make multipliers for fusion dance when fusion dance does not have one? Do we all know that Goku and Vegeta did not power up at all when they fought Buuhan to do potara fusion? Am I the only one noticing that their comparing a tired non powered up Ssj Vegeta to a motivated trunks in 150 times gravity? Are they saying Ssj Gotenks>>>Ssj3Goku? Did I just see a Ssj gohan after 7 years of no training get compared to goten? Someone please answer these questions

@23dhjyt: @johncena69swag:

With just a quick scroll I can spot countless errors and this entire thread is based off a false premise.

Do you even know what a premise is? All my reasonings are backed up with solid arguments and scans from the manga.

However, due to previous experience with you I'm not about to engage in a debate.

You already got massacred previously to the point that your superiority complex and ad hominem showed. Resorting to spite and ad hominem is a nicely written concession on a plate, which is what you did.

It seems apex predator already got most of the point across anyway.

Lmfao, nice confirmation bias. During that time he used what you quoted as "fan based calculations", isn't that what you're against the entire time? Your hypocrisy is real.

3 months later, I will assume that he no longer stands by that point or his debating ability got much better, so unlike you who actually digs up past opinions to spite, so I give him the benefit of the doubt. Unlike you, I don't initiate spite wars and stick to the point. Your resort to personal insults is hilarious and your accusation of calling others condescending holds no weight when your posts literally describes what condescending is.

But if you're going to do that again to ruin my blog, by my guest. I'll simply flag you for trolling.

Did he just compare Gotenks to Gogeta?

Are you trying to tell me that Gogeta stomps even SSJ3 Gotenks? You're silly.

Did I just see someone make multipliers for fusion dance when fusion dance does not have one?

1. It does.

2. I didn't make a assumption of what multiplier it is.

Do we all know that Goku and Vegeta did not power up at all when they fought Buuhan to do potara fusion?

Vegito was toying with Buuhan and only powered up once during the anime.

Am I the only one noticing that their comparing a tired non powered up Ssj Vegeta to a motivated trunks in 150 times gravity?

1. So is Trunks

2. The manga clearly showed that Vegeta had difficulty blocking Trunks' strikes whether you like it or not. Your refusal to accept concrete evidence is hilarious.

I'll refer you to this: http://www.skepticink.com/reasonablyfaithless/2013/07/09/invincible-ignorance/

Are they saying Ssj Gotenks>>>Ssj3Goku?

I hope you're not one of those people who actually thinks that SSJ3 Goku can be compared to Mystic Gohan.

Did I just see a Ssj gohan after 7 years of no training get compared to goten?

Yes. Your point?

@never_give_up: TLDR:

SSJ Vegito >>> Buuhan > Base Vegito = Buutenks > Mystic Gohan >> Buuccolo = SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu >> SSJ Gogeta > post-HTC SSJ Gotenks > Super Janemba > SSJ3 Goku = Kid Buu > Majin Buu

Had to remove shit like SSJ3 Gogeta to abide by the rules since they updated it not too long ago. But the point still holds.

To be honest, I'm also considering to remove Base Vegito since he only appeared in filler. Not sure, though.

@noobsnowman: I really don't want to get into this with you again but you're throwing a lot of bait at me. Just trust me when I tell you you're wrong. This would be easy to debunk with any user that is willing to listen.