Ahsoka Tano (Rebels) vs Darth Vader (OWK)

Rules

• Canon
• This is Vader from the OWK Disney + show
• The fight takes place where Kenobi fought Vader in episode 6 of the show
• Ahsoka has not yet fought Rebels Vader

Round 1

Both Vader and Ahsoka are in the exact same mental state that they would be in if this fight actually happened.

Round 2

Neither are conflicted and are both fully committed to killing the other

Don't recall an significant growth for Vader and he's credited as prime already in OWK. So still him.

It"s still prime Vader, so i think he would eventually win, or it could go either way. They are peers

So I am going to try and look at this in a slightly different way. In Star Wars canon, I can think of two instances where an apprentice beat their master in an actual fight—ROTJ Vader throwing Palpatine into the reactor and Vader beating Obi Wan in ANH. Neither circumstance is really the student overcoming the master, though, because Obi Wan is “too old for this sort of thing,” and Vader blindsides Palps.

I’m pretty sure Vader was buffed on Malachor, and Ahsoka still gave him a good fight. Depending on who you ask, Vader is either prime during OWK, or his powers double once a month (😂).

I’ll say he is somewhere in the middle, meaning he isn’t prime, but he grows a bit between OWK and Rebels. Ahsoka is fighting a less powerful Vader, and he isn’t amped by the Sith temple.

That being said, Ahsoka comes in at an immediate disadvantage being the apprentice, and I’m not sure she overcomes Vader here, but she gives him a great fight and makes it high diff for Vader. He doesn’t come out unscathed.

Ashoka beats him up, especially considering the state he’s in

R2: not as easy but still Ashoka

I don't know if the degree is ever specified(I think it might have been by Lucas specfically between anh and esb but i don't have the quote), but at least in sw comics him growing stronger is often one of the central payoffs. No idea iif there's a signifcant gap between OWK and Rebels Vader, but I don't think I buy the idea that Vader is "always in his prime' between rots and rotj.

also, I don't think "prime" in the context of the quote you're referring to applies to future versions, even if we assume it's combative.

They meant prime so far because they put a lot of time emphazising that he's not as fully formed as the OT Vader and people often see RoTJ as his prime.

IIRC they also said that he was in his prime in regards to him cutting lose similar to in Rogue one.

They meant prime so far because they put a lot of time ephazising that he's not as fully formed as the OT Vader and people often see RoTJ as his prime.

IIRC they also said that he was in his prime in regards to him cutting lose similar to in Rogue one.

Hey man. From my research into this looking at all the info, it seems like his prime is RoTJ. The writers of show mean he is his prime so far because they put a lot of time emphasizing that he's not as fully formed as the OT Vader. IIRC they also said that he was in his prime in regards to him cutting lose similar to in Rogue one.

Just to add, yeah I'm not sure how much more powerful he gets from OWK-Rebels-OT as I've not seen anyone calculate it.. Just that it happens lol.

I came across this when searching for Darth Vader’s prime. The comics suggest heavily that his rebuilt body after ESB is prime.

I don’t think anyone knows. Haha.

So many canon sources contradict one another.

Going with Vader.

@lightordark said:

@breakingthrones said:

@lightordark said:

So I am going to try and look at this in a slightly different way. In Star Wars canon, I can think of two instances where an apprentice beat their master in an actual fight—ROTJ Vader throwing Palpatine into the reactor and Vader beating Obi Wan in ANH. Neither circumstance is really the student overcoming the master, though, because Obi Wan is “too old for this sort of thing,” and Vader blindsides Palps.

I’m pretty sure Vader was buffed on Malachor, and Ahsoka still gave him a good fight. Depending on who you ask, Vader is either prime during OWK, or his powers double once a month (😂).

I’ll say he is somewhere in the middle, meaning he isn’t prime, but he grows a bit between OWK and Rebels. Ahsoka is fighting a less powerful Vader, and he isn’t amped by the Sith temple.

That being said, Ahsoka comes in at an immediate disadvantage being the apprentice, and I’m not sure she overcomes Vader here, but she gives him a great fight and makes it high diff for Vader. He doesn’t come out unscathed.

Hey man. From my research into this looking at all the info, it seems like his prime is RoTJ. The writers of show mean he is his prime so far because they put a lot of time emphasizing that he's not as fully formed as the OT Vader. IIRC they also said that he was in his prime in regards to him cutting lose similar to in Rogue one.

Just to add, yeah I'm not sure how much more powerful he gets from OWK-Rebels-OT as I've not seen anyone calculate it.. Just that it happens lol.

I came across this when searching for Darth Vader’s prime. The comics suggest heavily that his rebuilt body after ESB is prime.

I don’t think anyone knows. Haha.

So many canon sources contradict one another.

I remember seeing a debate and someone was using that quote but that quote was before Vader got better feats in RoTJ ( or something like that). I'll send you the links to the threads after I've had another look.

Lol yeah. I'll just show you the threads I found and you can see what you think. At least OWK is definitely not his prime as the showrunners went out of their way to say he is not fully formed yet and the talk of him being in his prime is more in regards to him cutting lose like he did in Rogue one.

@lightordark These are the threads that let me to believe RoTJ is his prime:

Knightfall Vader vs ROTJ Vader (Canon) - Battles - Comic Vine (gamespot.com)

Darth Vader (Rebels) vs Darth Vader (Return of the Jedi) - Battles - Comic Vine (gamespot.com)

It's somewhere in the second thread that they talk about Hidalgo's quote and how it came before his new canon feats or something like that.

ahsoka wins through scaling in a hard fight

vader later confirms in anh that he was much weaker the last time him and obi wan met which means he grew massively throughout the upcoming decade. ahsoka is canonically confirmed to have given malachor rebels vader a hard fight. i see no reason owk vader wins unless you ignore all canon scaling which everyone i’m sure will do. everyone only uses quotes when it benefits them and ignores them otherwise and just decides they’re non canon.

vader wan also confirmed to be fully set on killing ahsoka so there was never any conflicting ideologies in their initial engagement to begin with.

LOL…wtf is this mismatch?

Vader sends Dooku to beat Ahsoka

Rogue One is post OWK, its basically ANH. So you're conceding that Kenobi claps the later Vaders then?

Deborah's allusions to "fully formed Vader" is in reference to him getting Kenobi tunnel vision in the macro sense. Examples literally given in the series being letting the Rebels go to fight Obi-Wan in E6 or not noticing the second ship in E5. It's not that he's less powerful in any way. In terms of combat Vader is a decade into his career and fully formed in OWK.

This is also a reach for the use of the word "prime" being

- Of the best possible quality

- The state or time of greatest vigour or success in a person's life.

They never specify the so far and there's no reason to infer it. Chow, Hayden and crew are aware the OT exists as is Filoni who is overseeing. And with the knowledge they exist they have said: "No. OWK Vader is prime". The whole "fully formed" thing doesn't work either as they say the same thing regarding Kenobi leading up to his ANH iteration yet he is weaker there.

Funny how true this is..

Rogue One is post OWK, its basically ANH. So you're conceding that Kenobi claps the later Vaders then?

No, that's not actually what I'm saying. I explained that the writers had emphasized this was not Vader's prime yet in that he is not fully formed into the version we see in the OT and then I added that they mean he is in his prime in the sense of him being able to be fully unleashed how he was in Rogue one, not that he is at the same power level as he was in Rogue one. My initial point should make it clear that that's not what I'm saying.

Deborah's allusions to "fully formed Vader" is in reference to him getting Kenobi tunnel vision in the macro sense. Examples literally given in the series being letting the Rebels go to fight Obi-Wan in E6 or not noticing the second ship in E5. It's not that he's less powerful in any way. In terms of combat Vader is a decade into his career and fully formed in OWK.

They say he's not fully formed in an emotional sense, yes. He's still half Anakin after all. This does weaken Vader though as I explained in my blogs but we don't know by how much and it is as you say more of a tunnel vision to Obi Wan that is affecting him and so he is not weakened in the same way vs other opponents.

Vader is only a decade in though, that's the point. Just after getting his suit he is a shadow of his former self and gets absolutely annihilated by Sidious in a recent Canon comic, so it makes sense that he will take longer than 10 years to fully come into his prime which a lot of people argue is during the OT.

This is also a reach for the use of the word "prime" being

- Of the best possible quality

- The state or time of greatest vigour or success in a person's life.

It's not a reach at all because if they were trying to say that this is the point where Vader is his most powerful they would not only be contradicting themselves but they would be contradicting other canon sources which is something that they said they are trying to avoid doing. So the only logical conclusion is that A) they meant his prime so far or B) they are meaning the prime in terms of showcasing his abilities which is makes sense when they are referencing him being unleashed in Rogue one.

They never specify the so far and there's no reason to infer it. Chow, Hayden and crew are aware the OT exists as is Filoni who is overseeing. And with the knowledge they exist they have said: "No. OWK Vader is prime". The whole "fully formed" thing doesn't work either as they say the same thing regarding Kenobi leading up to his ANH iteration yet he is weaker there.

There is though as I explained above. No that's not what they have said at all though because their statements about not wanting to contradict canon and Vader not being as fully formed as he is in the OT as well as the context within which they use "Prime" make it clear that's not what they are saying.

It does work because they go out of their way to talk about Vader being conflicted and weakened by his feelings for Obi Wan and the rest of canon points to Vader's prime being at a later stage.

I forgot about the Dark Side amp, leaning towards Ahsoka now! Yep, it won't be easy, but she wins.

Vader doesn't have an "inherent advantage for being the master". The analogies don't prove ANYTHING

OT:
Vader

I noticed this scan of Vader mind controlling the monster from red space came up frequently, which is a good Vader feat (presumably).

Of course, immediately after that comes a more impressive feat:

Oh look, Palps is there he precedes to overpower Vader‘s mind control and have the master off itself. And no one can say Vader was conflicted because he explicitly states that he is no longer Palpatine’s apprentice.

Palp’s punks Vader again.

So the argument that I see so frequently is that Prime Vader is stronger than everyone by leagues. I guess this isn’t Prime Vader then.

It also comes down to an argument of plausibility. Does a Jedi in training beat the most powerful Sith in sabers when two Jedi masters couldn’t? Unlikely.

In my other thread about ROTJ Vader not being Prime, I put together several scans that imply Vader isn’t at his strongest in ROTJ. I know you’ve seen it. I am just wrapping up my thoughts.

@lightordark:

Do you genuinely hate the character of Vader? Like come on this is a bit odd at this rate.

Sidious didn’t “punk” Vader. The feat is extremely vague, we don’t know if the creature died to two conflicting minds clashing, if it couldn’t handle the power struggle between Force users, if Vader even has full control over it at this rate, etc. This could be a metric of mastery in the Force, Sidious could be better at mental manipulation than Vader. This feat is entirely too vague to assert anything. And ironically, ROTJ Sidious is in the same tier as Vader, which is being much stronger than everyone in the PT. They’re both on this peerless state/level of power. Even if Sidious were more powerful than Vader, it wouldn’t mean much

Vader notes that he became more powerful than Sidious and Kenobi could have imagined, and planned on killing Luke to end “his hope” to replace him. So Vader no longer cares about Luke and seemingly would end his servitude to Sidious by himself

And for context, “prime” is not one set year. A prime is a extended time of success. If Rebels Vader is in his prime, he can also be at his peak in ESB/ROTJ. A prime is a span of years

OT: Ashoka wins. Filoni and other sources implicate her parity to Rebels Vader, who was stronger than he was in OWK, where he was conflicted/hindered. Without it, she would still win, Vader grows over time

Ashoka ~< Rebels Vader > OWK Vader

Star Wars isn't known for continuity, which is what makes discussing it fun. Overall, I am trying to bring a little balance to the Vader hype, though I acknowledge that he is one of the most powerful.

@lightordark said:

@breakingthrones: Those threads were interesting to read.

I noticed this scan of Vader mind controlling the monster from red space came up frequently, which is a good Vader feat (presumably).

Of course, immediately after that comes a more impressive feat:

Oh look, Palps is there he precedes to overpower Vader‘s mind control and have the master off itself. And no one can say Vader was conflicted because he explicitly states that he is no longer Palpatine’s apprentice.

Palp’s punks Vader again.

So the argument that I see so frequently is that Prime Vader is stronger than everyone by leagues. I guess this isn’t Prime Vader then.

It also comes down to an argument of plausibility. Does a Jedi in training beat the most powerful Sith in sabers when two Jedi masters couldn’t? Unlikely.

In my other thread about ROTJ Vader not being Prime, I put together several scans that imply Vader isn’t at his strongest in ROTJ. I know you’ve seen it. I am just wrapping up my thoughts.

Yeah they seemed to point to his prime being RoTJ.
You know, some people use that as a TK feat for Vader, not a mind control lol. But TP does seem more likely than TK.

I'm not sure. I think Vader could still be in his prime here because he's always less powerful than the Sidious in the same time period as him.

Luke had some training from Yoda and the Skywalker bloodline so I could see him beating Vader after having already had some experience vs him, especially if he has conflict ( apparently Vader isn't conflicted but he is fighting his son so it's still questionable, especially given that he turns back to the light shortly after).

Yeah, you make some good points in that post. It's hard to say when his prime is tbh.

@lightordark:

So I said Sidious and Vader are peerless, and you said it only doesn’t make sense for Vader? Why not Sidious, who was restrained and got the full brunt of his lightning tanked by said Vader? Why would it make sense for one and not the other?

Vader grows exponentially, the PT does not hold up to the OT anymore. A good example is Vastor vs Vader, Vastor could match Windu and couldn’t be beat “on Windu’s best day”. Vastor was no match for Vadwr and Vader was called significantly stronger. Straight off the table Vader swapped hands with Jedi more powerful than Mustafar Kenobi. This power creep is very much supported, idk why you don’t like it so much. Sidious and Vader will always be a tier above Mace/Yoda/Kenobi

Ahsoka was doing well against a stronger Vader with an amp. She wins

bump

Reminder that Ahsokas style is directly geared towards fighting Vader

@greysentinel365:

Not what that says

@living162637: Maul was hit multiple times by Sidious lightning and was fine. Yoda was hit by it and got up and fought. It took a while for Luke to almost die from lightning. Sidious’s lightning killed Vader.

Vastor is a legends character. Shatterpoint is a legends novel. Nothing that happens in that book means anything when it comes to canon.

It’s not that I don’t like it. It’s that them being above Yoda and Mace isn’t true. Kenobi isn’t in the argument.

Don’t really need to reiterate something I’ve already explained on many threads that’s not related

Anyway my scale for the battle

Ashoka ~< Rebels Vader > OWK Vader by metric of consistency surrounding their fight and intent behind the creation of the fight. We know Vader continuously grows and based off his growth as Anakin, should be significant

And Old Maul is more powerful in base and is amped on a Force nexus making “more powerful than ever”, outside it Filoni doesn’t see Maul has even matching Ashoka. So that ass “ Vader > Maul > Ashoka” doesn’t work. And doesn’t cap her below Tyrannus, Maul, or any of the ROTS high tiers

That’s fine. You edited your original message that I was responding to. No need to hash this out again.

@greysentinel365: he may have said her style was helpful against larger opponents but filoni also went on record saying vader knowing how she fights is what would give him the win against her in the end. so there’s a quote of it being helpful and a quote of it not being helpful.

Yeah, Filoni said he could beat her because he was her master and had trained her so it definitely goes both ways.

Filoni also said "anakin can beat her.....because he trained her"

@lightordark said:

@breakingthrones: Those threads were interesting to read.

I noticed this scan of Vader mind controlling the monster from red space came up frequently, which is a good Vader feat (presumably).

Of course, immediately after that comes a more impressive feat:

Oh look, Palps is there he precedes to overpower Vader‘s mind control and have the master off itself. And no one can say Vader was conflicted because he explicitly states that he is no longer Palpatine’s apprentice.

Palp’s punks Vader again.

So the argument that I see so frequently is that Prime Vader is stronger than everyone by leagues. I guess this isn’t Prime Vader then.

It also comes down to an argument of plausibility. Does a Jedi in training beat the most powerful Sith in sabers when two Jedi masters couldn’t? Unlikely.

In my other thread about ROTJ Vader not being Prime, I put together several scans that imply Vader isn’t at his strongest in ROTJ. I know you’ve seen it. I am just wrapping up my thoughts.

Vader growing _bold_ would probably translate to being better at tapping into the darkside if nothing else.

could one of you post the two "prime" quotes

@kbroskywalker: Hey man, yeah no problem:

He is 100 per cent a fully realised Vader. This is, in a lot of ways, Vader in his prime. But he’s a very complex character, and there’s an inherent struggle of identity that is always present – there’s inner conflict. He’s always going to be struggling with the loss of Padmé. He’s got Anakin buried deep down inside. There always has to be that element of Anakin there, because he does eventually find redemption in the end – through the love of his son, no less. So there has to be that bit of him in there for Luke to be able to access. There’s a lot going on.”

Hayden Christensen says the fighting style in ‘Obi-Wan Kenobi’ is “more in line with the Star Wars Prequels” - Naboo News

That's the first one. I can't find the other one now but iirc it was from an interview and Rogue one is brought up. I'll have another look and post it if I find it.

Ok found it :

Deborah wanted to have really visceral sense, when he’s walking down the street kind of killing people, she’s like “We’ve never really seen this side of Vader. He’s in his prime. He’s super angry, he’s just full of rage.” And actually, the Vader that we kind of see in A New Hope and onwards is much more measured, and we never see him lose control, or randomly kill people in such an evil way. He’s more thoughtful and centered. So, yeah. That was a very deliberate decision.”

https://lrmonline.com/news/deborah-chow-and-natalie-holts-interesting-take-on-darth-vader/

That is one way to interpret his actions for sure. Sith are always looking for a way to overthrow their masters according to the Rule of Two. He may have just thought he had the advantage at that moment.The next comic implies heavily that he will never do it again, though.

Vader "sending" someone whose beat yoda is pretty questionable.

Also, are we ready to acknowledge the first portion of the fight lasted twice as long as you said it did or...

@lightordark said:

@kbroskywalker said:

@lightordark said:

@breakingthrones: Those threads were interesting to read.

Vader growing _bold_ would probably translate to being better at tapping into the darkside if nothing else.

That is one way to interpret his actions for sure. Sith are always looking for a way to overthrow their masters according to the Rule of Two. He may have just thought he had the advantage at that moment.The next comic implies heavily that he will never do it again, though.

well sidious still being beyond him doesn't really preclude him from being stronger than he was before

@kbroskywalker: Thats a fair point, but considering he was able to touch Sidious in the force at the end of ROTS (comic), and the above happens, saying that Sidious revealed some of his power, and Vader knelt, two things are implied heavily:

1. Sidious has grown exponentially since ROTS, making him god-tier by the time of ROTJ

or

2. Sidious was way above Anakin/Vader in ROTS, Vader had a one time show of ridiculous strength, and he has been gaining on Sidious ever since.

I’m thinking it’s the latter, and Vader was amped during the moment at the end of ROTS. I wrote about this in the link below.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/does-vader-have-a-padme-amp-2276641/

My thought is that the PT titans (Yoda, Palpatine, Mace and Dooku) were well above the Obis and Anakins of that time, and it took an amp of some kind for them to match their power—Zonakin comes to mind.

Vader grew substantially, but at some point that growth would slow because he isn’t all powerful, allowing Luke’s rage amp to help beat Vader.

For the OT - Vader wins still, but it’s not easy.

@lightordark:

1. Sidious has grown exponentially since ROTS, making him god-tier by the time of ROTJ

or

2. Sidious was way above Anakin/Vader in ROTS, Vader had a one time show of ridiculous strength, and he has been gaining on Sidious ever since.

It's the latter. There's a canon comic in 2022 where Sidious fights Vader shortly after RoTS and defeats him easily. I think Sidious has grown more powerful from ROTS -ROTJ though but the amount of growth is unclear. He had already increased in power during ROTS after order 66 but I'm not sure how much he increased in power after that.

Vader