@heiqn: MCU eternity only feat is bringing a dead girl back that’s literally it nowhere near enough to even use him in combat y’all just be typing shit
In raw power, we have Alioth (can consume countless realities and is a breakage in the universe) we have Infinity Ultron (can punch people through universes and fight people that transcend universal), Chthon (created Wanda who has the potential to destroy the multiverse), possibly MCU Oblivion soon (Likely being saved up for something big as he is the only cosmic entity in the MCU not seen yet. As the most powerful Marvel character, he should me massively powerful), and Amatsu Mikaboshi (maybe, because he appeared in L&T).
Most of what you said has no bearing in reality.
Alioth was only used as a weapon in the war. He never consumed realities or was a breakage in the universe. His consumption is only theoretical and completely unknown. Based on how he couldn't consume two low level Asgardians quickly... pretty safe to say even if he could consume realities it would be over time.
Chthon did not create Wanda. He prophesized her existence. He created the Darkhold. Wanda does not even remotely have the power or potential to destroy the multiverse. The threat was Incursions, not her power.
Oblivion is not even close to the only cosmic entity not seen in the MCU. He also is completely irrelevant to this thread. Oh, and he is not even close to the most powerful Marvel character. Like.... not even a little bit.
Amatsu Mikaboshi also irrelevant to this thread.
Even if you took all your bluster at face value... a supremely weaker Dream (only sand, in Hell, pre-ruby absorption) survived the end of the universe... pretty much the exact power set you are ascribing to Alioth and Oblivion.
Alioth was only used as a weapon in the war. He never consumed realities or was a breakage in the universe. His consumption is only theoretical and completely unknown. Based on how he couldn't consume two low level Asgardians quickly... pretty safe to say even if he could consume realities it would be over time.
2. Kang literally used him to consume infinite realities in the multiversal war. He is at least multiversal. He was not able to beat the Loki’s because 1. Kang allowed it to happen, and 2. Because Alioth was obviously not at his full power considering the fact that he was not destroying the whole timeline.
Chthon did not create Wanda. He prophesized her existence. He created the Darkhold. Wanda does not even remotely have the power or potential to destroy the multiverse. The threat was Incursions, not her power.
3. Chthon prophesied her, yes, but he gave her the source of her powers. Creating the Darkhold is what gave her her abilities. Also, the Darkhold would have literally allowed her to tule the universe putting her above Arishem who (btw) created the universe on a whim.
Oblivion is not even close to the only cosmic entity not seen in the MCU.
4. The only major one. We have Infinity, Death, Eternity, Eon, the Celestials, Infinity Stones, and The Living Tribunal.
He also is completely irrelevant to this thread. Oh, and he is not even close to the most powerful Marvel character. Like.... not even a little bit.
5. He actually is due to the fact that he literally exists beyond all of existence.
Amatsu Mikaboshi also irrelevant to this thread.
6. Why is that? He is multiversal+ in the comics, and his character is by definition at that level.
Even if you took all your bluster at face value... a supremely weaker Dream (only sand, in Hell, pre-ruby absorption) survived the end of the universe... pretty much the exact power set you are ascribing to Alioth and Oblivion.
7. Surviving the end of the universe is fodder to eve Strange Supreme who was able to completely stop his from being destroyed. Also, Oblivion should also by definition be able to spawn from himself being of infinite higher dimensions such as how he created beings like the Living Tribunal, so therefore, he should be more powerful. Good point on Alioth though.
I am not caught up on the show, so I could be missing some feats, but I do not see how any of them have any feats above low multiversal. If they do, please enlighten me.
1: At no point is it even inferred that Kang used Alioth to destroy realities. He was only used to win the war, and the war was with the other Kangs, not their universes/realities. That is literally all we know. Timelines were destroyed regularly in the series and Alioth was not used for that.
2: No. Cthon did not give her her powers. The Darkhold has nothing to do with her powers. The Mind Stone gave her powers. We literally know this for a fact. The Darkhold has nothing even close to universal levels of power. Also... Arishem did not create the universe. He is "credited" with creating the first sun. That is not creating a universe.
3: Seeing statues or depictions of a being does not mean it was seen. Its a fucking statue.
4: Oblivion in comics is literally stated to be equal to other cosmics, has fought equally with other cosmics, and is directly stated to be below the Living Tribunal.
5: Being Multiversal in the comics doesn't mean jack in the context of the MCU. Power levels are regularly adapted for the screen and character. Virtually all live action characters are substantially weaker then their comic counterparts.
6: No. Firstly, Strange Supreme is not live action, nor is it the MCU. Secondly, stopping something from being destroyed is not the same as tanking it. Finally, Oblivion is not live action and is not relevant to this thread. Oblivion also did not create the Living Tribunal... Not quite sure where you got that from... but it makes me a little sad.
Also, is it true they're universal? And what feats does the Anti-Life Equation of their universe have?
Multiversal probably.
So the whole Anti-Life was described as the end of the universe. Pure darkness, etc. Dream survived this while being extremely weak compared to later the in the series. He also survived a Nova, described as planet burning, just prior.
Dream only had his sand at this point. He was missing his helm and ruby. Later in the series, he absorbs his Ruby and he had forgotten how much of himself he sealed in the ruby, growing substantially in power (stating he is stronger then he has been in Eons).
Desire is weaker then Dream. The ending implied that Dream, Death, and Destiny were clearly stronger then the other 4 endless ( including desire ). Even at his weakest point, having none of his tools with the dreaming decaying, Desire did not act against him at that time. Desire chose to act against him with schemes and plots rather then directly.
Even being weaker then Dream, it is loosely implied that Lucifer probably couldn't take all the endless, and Lucifer is stated to be many times stronger then Dream at his strongest. So even taking into account Desire being weaker then Dream, Desire is still pretty damn strong.
Wait, isn't the battle of Dream and Lucifer, clearly metaphorical? I mean they don't battle as in becoming those said reality warping objects, they just...idk how should I put it.
The feat seems a bit wonky and idk if it's really applicable to the Dream himself.
Wait, isn't the battle of Dream and Lucifer, clearly metaphorical? I mean they don't battle as in becoming those said reality warping objects, they just...idk how should I put it.
The feat seems a bit wonky and idk if it's really applicable to the Dream himself.
Its not metaphorical. Its conceptual... remember they are essentially conceptual beings. The damage they suffer is very real. The conceptual aspect is the aspect shown as they make their move but the damage occurs in the real world.
This scene was specifically designed to show real damage. In the comics, no damage was done from their moves.
Gaiman chose to show this for a reason. It also shows the differences between them... while Lucifer's moves are power based, Dream chose to outwit Lucifer knowing he could not win with power.
Even if you take dream and Lucifer fight as literal, which it isn't.....dream caps at a Universe,
Then again, dream vortexes have the ability to create and destroy a universe, and dream can't stop one unless he kills it prematurely, that's why the last Universe blew up
IG Thanos can destroy one
Alioth literally ended the multiversal war and consumed all other realities save one
What-if IG Ultron was confirmed to affect entire multiverses with his attacks on uatu
Strange supereme legitimately held off the destruction of his entire universe
And then there're other ridiculously hax beings like those in Dr. who
@hydratedfubuki6: I have no knowledge about the comics but that fight looks/feel metaphorical because how do "hope" beat anti life. Makes no sense that is some shonen bs.
Even if you take dream and Lucifer fight as literal, which it isn't.....dream caps at a Universe,
Then again, dream vortexes have the ability to create and destroy a universe, and dream can't stop one unless he kills it prematurely, that's why the last Universe blew up
No, vortex has ability to pull every single dream universe into one single dream universe, assuming each dream universe is close to infinite in size, that'd essentially make her Multiversal, not universal. Destruction can't be bigger than one universe, because all dreams are connected to one universe, doesn't necessarily make her equal to Ultron or Thanos , who has only AP to destroy one universe at a time.
@akabane: Then how about his other feats? Having infinite sized dimensions in every sentient beings' dreams which he could fully manifest at will, and he's not even close to his full potential since most of his power were on the Dreamstone.
@hydratedfubuki6: But all that doesn't matter outside his realm. He is virtually unbeatable in his realm except by a dream vortex. In the world of the living, Lucy and Jobu have far better feat.(IMO, lol)
1. It really could not be simpler though. He literally states that he ended the infinite universes clashing with each other by weapon using a being that can literally destroy reality. This is what you do in debates. You take a fact and you deny it happening unless somebody can give you every single minute detail. And if I cannot do it, you are gonna say we do not have enough information. No, I do not know how he managed to become big enough to devour infinite timelines each with their own infinite universes in them with their own infinite realms inside them, but it still happened. That is a fact, and so it stands that he is complex multiversal for destroying multiple layers of multiverses. That is above creating billions of universes.
It is not a fact. None of that is fact. You are assuming based on no information. The Multiversal war was between the Kang variants. That is what Alioth was weaponized for, not to destroy universes.
This is not what you do in debates. Debates are based on facts and feats, with some implied logic. You take that to the utmost supreme where it becomes straight up head cannon.
2. Actually, we literally see from Wandavision that even before she got her Mind Stone powers, she literally edited reality to stop the Stark missile from exploding. That was a pretty large plot point. Also, the Darkhold is said to be the most powerful spell book along with the Book of Vishanti. There are several other books which grant people universal power. Look at Strange Supreme for example. He was able to literally create protection spells that allowed him and street levelers to no sell Infinity Ultron.
Being born with some latent magical ability does not equate to Cthon creating her. That is a giant leap in logic with no bearing in fact. At no point was that ever said.
Why do you continue to reference What If when this thread is literally about live action characters... on top of that, variants do not scale to one another. That is a literal fact.
5. Again, you are taking that from one Jenny guidebook made in the 80s before 80% of the times Oblivion appeared. Even then, there are literally direct contradictions to that guidebook. It says that Oblivion is the equal of Eternity. It is literally revealed in his FIRST debut that he created Eternity. In Chaos War, a being with an infinitesimal amount of power as Oblivion was stated to be equal than Eternity. I will CaV you on this. You can back the notion that Oblivion is equal to Infinity because some guidebooks written before 80% of his appearances said so, and ai can back the notion that he is superior based on literally every single comic book he has appeared in besides one in which their universal manifestations fought.
I can't even begin to imagine how you began to believe that Oblivion created Eternity. That is just... its funny.
No. Oblivion did not create Eternity, and that isn't even hinted at anywhere.
Also, just so you are aware, that Guidebook came out AFTER 80% of Oblivions appearances. Oblivion has literally fought Infinity and it was a stalemate.
5. So far, every single abstract has actually increased in their power level except for Eternity and the Celestials that stayed the same. Uatu went from being fodder to being low multiversal, The Infinity Stones went from being universal to being low multiversal too, and Chthon went to easily multiversal. The Chaos King has been heavily teased IMO as the new villain for the next Thor movie. He is gonna be at least universal.
lol what... No. We have not seen the power levels of any abstract in the MCU, so to say that "every single" abstract has increased in power over their cosmic counterparts is just flat out wrong.
6. It is literally canon I think. Wasn’t it said so by the makers?
Read the thread title. What if is not live action. Completely and utterly irrelevant.
7. He stopped the universe from being destroyed via magic. Same magic is equal to a Ultron’s which he tanked.
Hahaha... oh my. Just stop dude.
Finally, Oblivion is not live action and is not relevant to this thread.
9. He actually literally did. It is said that the multiverse and all of existence was created by him. I am not sure why that makes you sad. 🤔
Hahaha... No. That is not what was said. What makes me sad is you are either straight up delusional or trolling.
To add on he is the most powerful because he has the powers of every Kamen rider and while there are lower-end Kamen riders Like Faiz or Ryuki there are more powerful ones like Ex-Aid and Saver that gives some insane power for example Resistance to Universal level hax(Ex-Aid) and being omnipresent or close enough. best on-screen feats was erasing then recreating 20 universe(younger self) and repeatedly destroying and recreating an unknown number of universes as well as fusing an "Uncountable" number of universes into one while weakened* (Older self)
@heiqn: nowhere in the LA show is it stated that each person's dream is the size of a universe, many people's dreams there were literally confined to a room, like the serial killers. The vortex was never said to unmake a multiverse, infact, cream specified that it was. Universe that was busted the last time it went rogue, and dream himself was powerless against a vortex that's actually using it's powers in the show as we saw.
Ultron was confirmed to destroy MULTIVERSES against Uatu by the writer
@jaakor: I didn't say each person's dream is infinite in size, but even if 2 person's dream is infinite sized from 7 billion people + countless aliens, that would make him better than entire MCU. Yes it's stated. Vortex can break the walls between dimensions, which means every consciousness would end up in one dream universe, as we saw at the end of the series. Both Rose Walker's roommates were in the same dream. Now at full potential Vortex can pull entire universe population into one dream universe, and make it collapse into the real universe which destroys the universe, while using a infinite sized multiverse.
There is only one multiverse. Ultron's statement was basically telling he destroyed universes which contains infinite sized dimensions like Dark Dimension inside of it. Each Universe is multiverse on its own.
Ultron is low multiversal at best, and that's assuming he affected 2 universes at the same time with one punch. Watcher and Strange is even below him.
Dream alone controls more than 7 billion dimensions automatically every second. That's trillions times better than everyone in the MCU, minus maybe Alioth.
Don't waste my time if you have not actually watched the scene.
"I weaponized Alioth, and I ended. I ended the multiversal war."
Kang literally states that Alioth can devour universes, then proceeds to say that he used it to end the multiversal war. The only way to destroy timelines is from deleting them. Do you think Kang (a supergenius) used Alioth (a being who can eat space-time) to simply just eat other Kangs, and keep the multiverse in shambles, or do you think he utilized Alioth to destroy the enemy timelines exactly as he uses him today. Hmmm. This is a difficult question....
Did you watch it?
He specifically says consuming space and time... which is not the same as devouring universes.
He also says he isolated his timeline. Which is also not the same as destroying universes.
Unless you think those TVA Grenades are universal, because they do the same thing.... lol
I am not claiming that. I am claiming that he created the Darkhold which was a main source of her true powers such as dreamwalking.
The darkhold, like any spellbook, grants the user power. Gaining power is not the same thing as being the "main source" of someones power.
Denial is one hell of a drug my friend.
"Nothing from which the evereything springs""Watched the birth of everything""Darkness before universe"
Oh god.... you don't have a firm grasp on the marvel cosmology, do you?
First of all, being the "nothing" from which everything springs is not creation. If your in a pitch black room, and turn on a flashlight, is the darkness responsible for the light? No. Its just what was there before.
Watching the birth of everything does not mean he created it.
Being the darkness before a universe is meaningless. Eternity existed before the multiverse as well, as did the Living Tribunal.
Oblivion had an actual large role in 2 comic runs before that. The Quasar ones which only featured their universal manifestations, and an Iceman one which has actual dialogue that debunks the book. One example of this is how the book claims that Oblivion possesses a chronal diumension. He does not. His physical realm that he simply created is literally stated to be beyond time, and space on the first page of his first appearance.
So from this we have the power scaling of
Oblivion=Infinity, and Oblivion>Infinity and Eternity. That is already inconsistent with what the book is saying.
After the guidebook, he had 3 major appearances.
In one, Oblivion appeared in Chaos War. Amatsu Mikaboshi who is an aspect of him was stated equal to multi-Eternity.
He also appeared in a Thor one in which he breaks the 4th wall, states that he is literally nothing and that the comics that show him are just representations of him. He also goes on to prove that he represents not the blank pages, but the actual literal nothingness, and then brings up comic metaphysics, breaks the 4th wall, and basically states that what the state of existence he represents is the state of something that does not exist. Basically, the form of nothingness that the comic character represents is the actual lack of all things, and not just some weak "bLanK pAgE stuFf" like the Overvoid.
After this, in another comic, he also gets a quote that says after all the abstracts die, and Marvel comics stops, he will remain.
In every incarnation of Oblivion that has shown up, he has been shown to be specifically equal to Infinity and subservient to LT. Literally every single time...
Arguing that he is anything but is just head cannon.
Also... even on its face is laughable to consider Oblivion the most powerful character in Marvel.... He wants to destroy everything, if he was the most powerful, why hasn't he? Why has he acted through avatars and fragments this entire time? Why does he need to try and get two cosmics to fight eachother?
Literally occams razor here... he can't.
If he is as powerful as you are ascribing him, the only thing that could stop him would be someone more powerful. So even with the most basic of logics, he simply cannot be the most powerful character in Marvel.
We literally have though. Uatu was low multiversal, the Celestials are basically universal, Eternity would have blinked several universal characters, and even the Elder God Chthon has spells that can collapse universes. They are at least even for the moes part.
No, we haven't. Uatu and Celestials are not abstracts, neither is Chthon, by the way. So even if your farfetched imagination was true, it doesn't mean anything.
2. Dude, what? Do you know what universes are? Constructs of space and time. This is not that hard to grasp. This is actually kind of hilarious.
First of all, Space and Time are the same thing. Also, there is far more to a universe then just that. Timelines are not the same as universes.
3. You act like he could not do both? He obviously destroyed those other timelines, or else they would still exist. I still do not understand what about this is so complicated
He isolated his timeline. That is not at all the same thing.
4. No. They are different. The bombs send the universes to the Void, and Alioth eats them.
Buddy... there aren't universes in the void. There are small fragments of a branched reality. The TVA bombs the branch as it happens. Kang did the same thing.
We also see there are tons of random junk in the void. Alioth didn't eat that stuff. Hell, he was evaded by variants for god knows how long. Just on basic logic, should tell you that at absolute best, Alioth is over time... a long time in fact. There are WW2 ships in the void.
5. 🙄 What the heck are you talking about? If something allows you to gain powers, then that is the source of those powers you gained. That is pretty simple logic not beyond the grasp of a 2 year old.
Do you even remember the original part of your argument here?
You stated that Cthon created wanda and that the Darkhold was the source of her power. Those things mean that her powers, all of them, came from the Darkhold/Cthon. That isn't true.
6. Far better than you considering the fact that you literally do not understand anything. LOL
Says the guy who thinks Oblivion created the LT. lol
7. This has gotta be one of the worst metaphors I have ever heard. The difference is that there was nothing before the multiverses. There was no outside source. It is more like virtual particles in a vacuum than a flashlight in a dark room. They are not caused by any outside source.
No, its a pretty damn good metaphor you just don't seem to understand basic logic anymore.
Being the nothingness is just the empty space where things then occupied. If your room is empty, and YOU put a bed in it, the room didn't create the bed. We know for a fact that the One Above All created the multiverse, in all its incarnations.
9. What the heck are you on? Eternity is the literal multiverse. Are you high? Have you ever read a comic in your life?
I have, you haven't.
There have been 7 Multiverses and 8 "Cosmos" in Marvel history. Eternity, the current one, is the same one that existed in the previous Multiverse. There is literally an entire storyline about it, and how the First Firmament chained him.
Hell, Galactus survived the last multiverse... Something Oblivion didn't do according to writers.
10. Wow. That is amazing. You just completely ignored everything I just said, and did not even attempt to counter it. There has not been a single appearance where he has been stated, or shown to be below the Living Tribunal. The only time ever was when a universal manifestation of him (not at full power) fought Infinity. Every other appearance has had him above or equal to the Living Tribunal.
You are something else my man.
Oblivion is just one aspect of TOAA, just as Chaos king is a aspect of Oblivion.
Here you have Oblivion literally being stated to not survive the end of the multiverse, much like any other abstract.
Oblivion only exists in one multiverse. His literally function.
LT exists in ALL Multiverses. So explain to me how a being that only exists in one multiverse created a being that exists in the Omniverse? lolol
Pyramid literally shows TOAA at the top, then LT, then all abstracts below him.
Literal depiction of him being above everyone else.
Literally states that the only being above Eternity is LT.
Wait, isn't the battle of Dream and Lucifer, clearly metaphorical? I mean they don't battle as in becoming those said reality warping objects, they just...idk how should I put it.
The feat seems a bit wonky and idk if it's really applicable to the Dream himself.
it's legit not applicable at all. Lucifer only gave up countering hope.
Log in to comment