Katara vs Suyin and Kuvira

Katara

Kuvira and Suyin Beifong

• Win by any means
• Basic knowledge
• In character
• Start 20 meters apart
• Fight in the Crystal Catacombs

@cryolancer47@minhcake@mrblackdragon@mantraxsp@korraalone@geekryan@anthp2000@viking1205:@chloros:@bigdreamer48:@edgelord91:@vengefulshot:@byondeon:@eslay03:@aystarr@stratospher@kataraaaa

Well Suyin isn’t a great pure earthbender. And she tends to use her environment more than just her standard gear unlike Kuvira. But Kuvira’s style is very lethal if Katara happens to take her eyes off her for a split second. Suyin can pressure her into evasion with some of the attacks she used on P’li and Kuvira can end it then. I’ll say duo high diff

Without a metal source Su is washed and Kuviras gear isn’t saving her from someone like Katara. The team needs a metal source.

Duo take it, mid diff. Both are way more agile and there's a lot of earth here. They take her out similar to how the Beifongs took P'li. One distracts the other strikes. Katara is excellent but Kuvira especially isn't that far behind her.

Duo low diff, Kuvira by herself is arguably stronger

@pizzagod342:

Kuvira by herself is arguably stronger

Not even remotely

That's hilarious.

OT:

I'd back Katara in a very close fight, due to the basic knowledge mainly. Neither Suyin or Kuvira are good enough earthbenders and they will have to rely on metalbending here.

Kuvira solos ngl. Nobody touches her greatness lmao

I don't understand this part, the main reason suyin was able to "pressure" Pli into evasion was pli's lack of proper defense which Katara has, there's also a big power difference between katara and the girls when looking at the stats of their attacks/defenses, I don't see how that's happening here.

OT: There's a good amount of water in the catacombs, they can't handle Katara's versatility and power there.

@aystarr: i can agree w that

@aystarr: Katara struggles with agile opponents though and with their cables both Suyin and Kuvira are very agile. Plus there usual equipment is metal armour that's a fair amount of metal right there and Kuvira especially showed that she fights with earth in a very similar manner to how she fights with metal when she faced Korra with her meteors in the mech.

No she doesn't, I actually don't know where this comes from seeing as Katara fought different agile opponents multiple times and never had a problem with any of them and would always win against them without stressing over their agility, except instances such as sneak attacks, not to mention Katara is also quite fast and agile herself.

I guess you can say kuvira does have a fair amount of metal, afterall that's what she use for majority of the show, but it really isn't going to give Katara trouble, They cant penetrate her water/ice defense which has stood against attacks more powerful than Kuvira has ever shown, They would also be deflected if Katara whips them away as she has the stronger bending and katara can also freeze projectiles mid air which isn't really good for Kuvira.

The same goes with earthbending too, except kuvira doesn't even have good earthbending feats so she wouldn't put up as much of a fight with that.

@aystarr: but the problem is Katara will have to face the two opponents making it easier for an agile opponent to perform a sneak attack. Like with Ty Lee.

Katara here is dealing with two extremely mobile fighters, who are going to be zipping around the battlefield and are surrounded by there own element. If she gets one pinned down which I highly doubt considering how gracefully and easily Suyin evaded all of Lins attacks during their fight and of course how easily Kuvira evaded Korras attacks.

Katara can't beat two masters that aren't that far behind her.

Katara has contended against Azula, Zuko, Ty Lee, Mai, etc. and yet Suyin and Kuvira are too agile for her...? How does that make sense?

@geekryan: when she faced Mai and Ty Lee together she lost, when she faced Azula and Zuko together she was knocked out. Through the use of there cables the metal benders are honestly way more manoeuvrable than any of the above benders minus maybe Ty Lee

You mean in this fight, where Katara was stomping Mai before Ty Lee took her by surprise?

Or do you mean this fight, where Katara was suffering from several days of exhaustion and still fought off Ty Lee?

When she fought Azula, she had the upper hand against her for most of the fight and almost downed her before Zuko intervened. Then she continued to fight Zuko, after which Azula joined. This was after several minutes of fighting.

And let's not forget Katara's fight against Comet-amped Azula, who is much more agile than Kuvira or Suyin.

Their cables enhance their agility, but in the Crystal Catacombs, they have nothing to attach their cables to. Kuvira rarely uses cables btw, so it isn't consistent. If this battle took place in Republic City or Zaofu, it would be a different story.

@geekryan: Eeegghhh what's stopping them from attaching the cables to the earth, we've seen them do just that in the fight with P'li. They are literally covered by earth on all sides in the Catacombs.

My argument stands when Katara faced any of the others in a 2 vs 1 she lost. She won't be able to handle the metal benders 2 on 1 either.

She fought Azula briefly in the Catacombs and got the drop on her. Herself and Zuko were evenly matched.

And then she was knocked our almost immediately when she faced the sibling 2 on 1.

1) Because Suyin rarely does that and Kuvira has done it once with her old uniform/gear? You can't just ignore consistency because it fits your narrative of Suyin and Kuvira magically abusing cables lol.

2) You are ignoring context, and Kuvira/Suyin aren't the same as Azula/Zuko or Mai/Ty Lee.

3) Katara never got the drop on Azula in the Catacombs lol, and she still almost slammed Azula into the ground before Zuko intervened.

4) Yeah, after having fought them both 1v1 for an extended period of time.

Your logic in Kuvira and Suyin beating Katara under these circumstances relies on completely ignoring context and consistency and relying on factors that would not apply in this battle. Neither Suyin nor Kuvira ever fought a waterbender like Katara, so there is nothing to suggest they can counter her, especially when there is no additional metal in the battlefield for them to utilize.

@geekryan:

1. Suyin has used cables in her fight against P'li and in the final fight against Kuvira. They are a regular part of her armour like anyone from Zaofu. There was three fights were she didn't, her fight sith Lin which she didn't know was going to happen, her fight against the red lotus in which she was in her pyjamas and her fight against Kuvira mid book 4 when she had been captured and stripped of her gear. She uses cables when in battle.

An argument could be made for Kuvira not having cables but she still used them all throughout book 3. Your just assuming they definitely won't have them.

2. Your right they are nothing a like and I'm not trying to compare the two I'm saying that Katara has lost every 2 vs 1 she has been in, which is why I think she'll lose this one.

3. Egh how did she not get the drop on her, she knocked her over, countered her attack and was about to slam her.

She fought Zuko very briefly. If you watch the fight. Zuko break Kataras hold on Azula. They exchange Whip for a couple seconds while Azula shoots Aang into the wall. Then they gang up on her.

What context am I ignoring and can you tell me exactly why these factors don't apply ? Gear isn't listed. It's win by any means which means the metal benders can have cables which they have both been shown to use in multiple fights.

Katara hasn't faced metal benders full stop. Suyin has travelled the world, she was also raised in Republic city a melting pot of different bending arts. Her style of metal bending is also very similar to a water bender. It flows from offence to defence very gracefully. And Suyin taught Kuvira everything she knows. There is not metal but the metal they have as part of there armour and also they are enclosed on all sides by Earth. You seem to just want to downplay the Metalbenders to a level which they are not at. Are they individually on Kataras level, no, but together yes they are.

1) And yet Suyin still rarely uses them in combat. Using it once to evade attacks and once in a fight against Kuvira, when she did not use them in any other battle, is not enough to say she would abuse them in combat like how you are implying.

As for Kuvira, her Book 3 armour was that of a Zaofu officer. What she wears Book 4 is a different armour. In Book 4, she used them ONCE, against Suyin. Again, not consistent.

2) Except that both of the 1v2's Katara had involved context, which you repeatedly ignore.

Toph has never beaten a prominent bender in a 1v1. Are you going to use that to say she can't beat any prominent bender in a 1v1?? See how that logic sounds?

3) "Getting the drop" means to get a head start on someone, or to get the first attack in via surprise/distraction. Katara never had this advantage over Azula in the Catacombs. Quite the opposite, actually.

4) Yes, Zuko intervened to save Azula, when Katara had Azula dead to rights. Then Katara and Zuko fought with their whips and were evenly matched.

5) All the context you are ignoring:

• Katara getting surprised-attacked by Ty Lee while she was busy beating Mai.
• Katara being exhausted when fighting Ty Lee yet still fighting her off, before Mai incapacitated her.
• Katara having fought Azula 1v1 for an extended period and then having fought Zuko 1v1 for a short time, before she got teamed up on. This was not a fair fight, and not even a fair 1v2 as Katara had already been fighting beforehand and was therefore not in perfect condition like she would be at the very start of a fight.

And the fact that Kuvira and Suyin will abuse their cables when it is out of character for them to do so, AND in an environment of pure earth with nothing except the ground itself to attach the cables to.

6) Maybe it's because you are new to CV, but unless otherwise stated, characters have their STANDARD GEAR. Not composite. Standard for Kuvira is her Book 4 gear, not her Book 3 gear.

7) But she has basic knowledge here, plus her already-existing knowledge of metalbending via Toph.

You can try and make Suyin's life and bending sound as complex as you want, but it still doesn't result in her having any experience against a waterbender, let alone one of Katara's calibre.

Kuvira and Suyin's earthbending is laughable compared to what Katara has dealt with, to the point that it isn't even a real factor.

If this battle took place in Zaofu or Republic City, I would back Kuvira and Suyin. But here, despite all the earth, there is no environmental metal for them to use either as offence or for mobility.

Saying Katara struggles against agile opponents when we saw her fight off Ty Lee while exhausted and when she has fought Azula and Zuko on multiple occasions, is just plain silly.

@geekryan: 1. Suyin has used them in combat they are a part of her gear hence why she would have them in this fight. How am I saying she would abuse them in combat. She would use them to dodge attacks like how she did with P'li and then traverse the environment like how we saw with Kuviras mech. I'm not saying these cables are suddenly going to destroy Katara but they will allow Suyin to get behind her and to avoid her attacks.

2. The context, a surprise attack from Ty Lee how are the metal benders not capable of this. It only happened because it was a 2 vs 1. So we say Katara is fighting Kuvira what's stopping Suyin from attacking her ? The second fight yes Katara was exhausted but she actually lost to Mai 1 vs 1 ehile Ty Lee defeated Sokka. I don't think that fight is fair to use though as Katara was far from her best. If Azula and Zuko had ganged up on her at the start of the fight the exact same result would have happened. Katara would have lost a very short fight. I'm giving her the benefit of the doubt here but it's still a 2 vs 1 the minute she gains the advantage over 1 the other will come to save their partner.

The cables have been shown to attach to the earth, there are plenty of pillars and an earthen roof. The Catacombs definitely favour Earthbending over Waterbending.

Katara has barely dealt with any Earthbending. She has fought primarily Firebenders, the Earth Kings guards and Ty Lee she faced with the rest of the gang. Aang and Toph provided all of the defence in that battle, Katara just whipped the guards.

Suyins Earthbending is honestly not laughable, she used it in her fight with Lin, actually striking Lin from two sides, very impressive if you watch it. She used it against P'li hurling several huge Rocks at her, she used it to fly through the air and almost hit Kuvira with a rock and she used it to literally Bury Kuviras mech in a skyscraper with Lin and Bolin. That's pretty impressive and she also will have metal in her armour. We see in her fight with Kuvira that she can use these tiny strips of metal like the former, hurtling them through the air like daggers. Kuvira has tons of metal in her armour, enough to beat (a messed up) Korra, beat Suyin, beat a load of bandits, all pretty easily. Shes a master of metal bending and while her Earth feats are lacking she has enough feats with just metal to do well in this fight.

Neither bender is suddenly helpless while surrounds by Earth, to say THAT is just silly. While they both obviously favour metal they are still Master Earthbenders, they wont even have to primarily rely on Earth, at least not for offence, as they both have plenty of metal as part orf there usual gear.

Okay, you clearly don't have a clue as to how things work here, so I'm not going to bother.

@geekryan: I understand just fine, it's not rocket science. If you don't want to debate my points that's fine but let's not pretend it has anything to do with my lack of understanding.

It clearly does, considering you don't understand the basic concepts of how battles work in that they involve standard gear (unless otherwise stated), fighters starting off in perfect condition, and not involving things like surprise attacks.

You can't choose ignore context and consistency when it suits your opinion.

@geekryan: Im using standard gear. In Book three Suyins gear is her armour which has cables and there is context to the two times in book 3 we see her without aka she was not meant to be fighting. And yes they are in perfect condition what's the point? Are you saying Zuko and Azula working together would have only stood a chance against Katara because she had been fighting Azula individually before and was not in perfect condition. How was she not in perfect condition? She hadn't sustained a hit. If Aang had not been there and Katara had to face Azula and Zuko on her own from the very start do you really see there being any other result than Katara losing very quickly like what was shown ?

Dude, even you can do better. First of all, if we turn off your double standards and dismisss every move in Katara's arsenal that she only used once, for the sake of your beloved "consistency", it will reduce her to fodder characters in terms of skill and variety, being able to only use some of the most basic moves. Because her main strengths are raw power and versatility. In fact, that would happen to a lot of high tier characters.

Secondly, you actually have to prove what "standard gear" for Suyin means and why it doesn't involve cables. Because standard gear for her is her armor. Which has cables. And every time she went into a proper battle without being caught off guard (so excluding the fight on the cannon where she just got rescued out of a prison and didn't have any gear, her fight against her sister she wasn't prepared to and the Red Lotus attack on Zaofu) - she always had her armor and her cables. During season 3 finale, during season 4 finale, and in the comics. She even had cables during her ninja mission into Kuvira's camp. And she did use them multiple times in combat:

Same goes for Kuvira. She used cables to avoid the lava in Zaofu, she used them against P'li, and them not being a part of her season 4 gear doesn't matter because it's not actually true. She made cables out of metal strips in her fight against Su, in the fight against Guan, and even used a flexible whip made of meteorite against Korra in the cockpit.

Thirdly, trying to justify Katara losing to Azula and Zuko because she wasn't in "perfect condition", as if she showed any signs of being tired, took any damage, or everyone involved didn't fight there for just as long as she did - is just an excuse.

Fourthly, being caught off guard and surprise attacked in a 2v1 fight doesn't require her to be unaware of the second opponent. P'li knew she's fighting two people, it didn't save her. Especially considering that Su can use tunneling and has seismic sense.

And lastly, the idea that Katara having basic knowledge and knowing Toph, is somehow supposed to help her surpass lack of experience against metalbenders, and yet for them her being a traditional waterbender of "her caliber" is supposed to be such a big deal that they won't be able to "counter her" - is another double standard. Toph doesn't metalbend the way Kuvira and Su do. Katara never fought a metalbender. And even if we assume that Su and Kuvira have no clue about traditional waterbending beyond basic knowledge - all three of them are still on the same level of no experience here. She doesn't have bloodbending. She doesn't have P'li's splash AOE. She doesn't have lightning spam. And she can't afford to use extreme scale while fighting someone as fast as Kuvira or Su. So there's nothing "uncounterable" about her.

Duo high diff

@geekryan: mai and Tyler aren’t on suyin and Kuvira level and she never beat Zuko and Azula at the same time

@stratospher: all of this

@lamar24: no one cares.

Duo low difficulty. Feats be damned honestly there is no way in universe would katara be able to handle both suyin and kurvira at the same time lol

"Feats be damned" why?

Katara has fought against multiple high tier characters before, she should be able to do it now, why not?.

She has been able to stall high tier character. there is no way in hell she is actually going to beat two high tier characters at the same time. besides that what feats does katara even have to suggest she could win this 2v1? so far there hasn’t even been any feats to illustrate her being that strong

Duo, Katara can’t afford to use her larger scale moves against Kuvira’s quickdraw in a 2v1 setting. And brute forcing her way through them is her only viable option here

@aystarr: how many times are you going to try to sneak in full moon feats dude? You aren’t slick 😂

@aystarr: kurvira is a master earthbender. She is most certainly close to katara power wise but even if that isn’t the case kurvira fighting style focuses on precision rather than outright overpowering people.

https://youtu.be/-wrTnIzSGyQ?si=ESIipSqnWAVNV9pp

Not only does katara lack any type of experience vs metal bending( so assuming she be able to understand and counter it on the fly is kinda ridiculous) , the environment in question isn’t surrounded by a body of water like she was in those feats.

All in all this isn’t dbz, katara is strong but ill take experience, and precision over it.

duo low difficulty

What are you even talking about?, these are things she can do without the moon, nobody is "sneaking" anything, I just posted the one I could faster, the point still stands if it was any other feat and that's clear, can you not be annoying for 5 mins jeez.

@aystarr said:

So Katara can instantaneously create waves massive enough to dwarf a battleship, with the crystal catacombs as a water source, without the full moon, despite her needing several seconds to create a smaller wave to push a battleship in the daytime, with an entire ocean to work with. Sureeeee, and you regularly do this in every Katara thread. You either try to sneak in FM feats and pretend that they count or use feats that aren’t combat applicable and pretend that they are. You know this too, because you regularly point out amplifications or context behind feats when it’s other characters. So the point stand, you aren’t slick 😂

@aystarr: question do you believe that if katara actually fought these characters in the show she would actually win?

Oh I see what's going on, Toph lost that tournament, it's been months, let it go, goodbye 💀.

@aystarr said:

What’s going on is you’re getting called out for being biased. Which you seem to struggle with hiding in every thread… ☠️

That is not the point tho, no one is here to think for the writers lol, however looking at the feats they have so far, if all the characters involved are performing at their best, this would end up in a victory for katara.

Katara fans stop being annoying challenge: impossible.

Anyway, duo slaps.

@aystarr: that is the point. This debate is silly if there was a situation where katara fought these two in a duo we know she would lose.

But we don't...?

The Weak sauce streak continues lol.

Are you kidding me? You actually believe the writers would make katara beat the main villain of the season alongside another very strong earth bender?????? In a 2v1?

writers don’t care about feats they they care about narratives. Karara would realistically never win