-Skyfather CaV: Nightmare(Marvel) By Andromeda1001 Vs. Highfather(DC) By Chimeroid- / Open For Votes

• Scan 1-2 ) In his realm, while holding Eternity, grows bigger than planets and smashes them with his own hands(Doctor Strange#182). It should be noted that it were all Earths from the past and all that will be. So like, almost endless numbers:

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• Scan 1-2-3-4-5 ) Putting the Avengers to sleep and creates a universal event for them, defeating them with his dreaming constructs(Avengers Vol.6#7):

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• Scan 1-2-3 ) Nightmare easily spanks both Doctor Strange and Sleepwalker in the Dream Dimension, but what truly makes this fear impressive is that Sleepwalker now has limitless abilities and nigh-infinity power(Basically the powers of any heroes in the MU, such as the Hulk and so on) while inside the dreams(Moon Girl and the Devil Dinosaur#41).

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• Scan 1-2-3-4-5-6 ) Defeating Doctor Strange in an almost downright stomp after the later challenges him in the Dream-Dimension(Strange Tales Vol.2#7).

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• Scan 1 ) Nightmare defeated several Beyonders, toying with them until their energies dissipated(Doctor Strange: Nexus of Nightmares).

• Scan 1-2 ) Nightmare fighting both All-Father Thor and King Loki simultaneously and apparently having the upper hand as well, only being defeated after a sneak attack of a snowman powered up by the Norn Stones(Loki Vol.3#1).

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• Scan 1-2 ) Nightmare getting the upper hand against Loki while using a fricking traffic sign as weapon, even though Loki was armed with Thor's Jarnbjorn(LokiVol.3#4).

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• Scan 1-2-3-4 ) He can turn all the matter in the universe into anti-matter, transforming the entire universe aside from a protected Latveria, into his own land where dreams are real and reality bend to his desires(Doctor Voodoo: Avenger of the Supernatural#3).
• Scan 5-6-7-8-9-10 ) Nightmare was merging the universe Dreamland with the real world as a side-effect of just sleeping on Earth, his mad creations were even overwhelming the combined efforts of the original Defenders sans Namor(Silver Surfer Vol.7#5).

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• Scan 1-2-3 ) Nightmare re-created the Big-Bang made by Sise-Neg/Genesis inside of Mordo's room(Doctor Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts#10).
• Scan 4-5-6-7-8 ) By channeling one-third of Earth's dreams, Nightmare imprisoned Eternity and put the abstract into an eternal slumber if not for Doctor Strange(Doctor Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts#13).

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My strategy will be Nightmare mentally attacking Highfather. Nightmare's power and influence on the mind is well documented. For example:

• Scan 1-2) Mikaboshi using the powers of Nightmare to subdue every mortal/hero/villain mind(Chaos War#1):

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In fact, Doom pretty much explained that Nightmare is actually the subconscious energy of all mankind(Doctor Voodoo: Avenger of the Supernatural#5):

• Scan 1-2 ) Nightmare himself has even turned all the bad dreams of the world into reality(Avengers: The Initiative#30):

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Which was confirmed by the official guidebook The Mysterious World of Doctor Strange:

• Scan 1-2-3 ) Together with Dweller-in-Darkness, plaguing the entire Earth with fear(DSSS#40):

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He's been shown to extend way beyond that in certain instances, such as the entire universe(Doctor Strange: The Fate of Dreams):

The rough translation is:

"And I'll see if I can think of a way to help you before all dreamers in the universe are driven to madness?"

Nightmare, was once again, mentioned to be able to harness the dream energy of the entire universe, if sees fit(The Mysterious World of Doctor Strange):

So Nightmare's control over the mind can reach even to universal levels. The power of dreams has been shown to be extremely powerful. Take Spiderman, for example. With the powers of the Dream Dimension, Peter overwrote reality itself and could become its all-powerful god(Symbiote Spiderman: Alien Reality#5):

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As for Nightmare's nature himself, I'm unsure if Highfather can take him down. Nightmare is an abstract entity, which makes him an essential part of reality(Scarlet Witch Vol.2#14, Doctor Strange, Master of the Mystic Arts#34):

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Nightmare's immortality also extends to cosmic levels, Loki himself said that fighting him is useless since could effortlessly stitch back himself(Loki Vol.3#4):

Nightmare's base durability does change from story to story, but recently, took a reality-breaking punch from Ms.Marvel in Thunderbolts Vol.4#5:

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Another point is Nightmare's control over the dreams and his dimension:

• Scan 1-2 ) Creating an entire plane of existence with his own essence(Marvel Comics Presents#121-122).

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• Scan 1 ) Stopped Doctor Strange from crossing his realm, showing that Nightmare can be anywhere in his realm(Morbius: The Living Vampire Vol.1#9).

So Highfather may have some problem taking him down.

Now, I would love to explain the Sphere of the Gods in detail, but someone else has already done it quite well, goes by PrinceOfTheMorning, so i will just be using their explanation.

The Sphere of the Gods is the overarching realm containing the godly and magical realms of the DCU and possesses an immaterial, metaphysical nature. It is home to the Archetypal Powers and Intelligences of the DCU (note here the blatant references to Plato and Plotinus). The realm is stated to be made of literal possibility and formed as an encompassing sphere around Creation before Creation had even finished forming. It is deeply tied to, and possibly indistinguishable from, the ideas and beliefs of mortals.

The very first thing you should note here is from the Map itself. Refer back to Wonderworld, stated to orbit creation itself on the utmost limit to space and time. From that, it is quite clear that Morrison is taking his Platonic references seriously, as the Realm of Ideas is supposed to completely transcend the concepts of space and time by their very nature.

This is where the New Gods exist, and this is where this fight will take place

Yes, we are in Dream, but in the Sphere of the Gods, New Gods are not just your run-of-the-mill herald/teambuster characters. In this Sphere, they are actual Gods. In fact, they are far above regular Marvel and DC gods as even the likes of Greek Gods from DC are just what remains of the God Wave's energy by the time the energy went through New Genesis to Earth.

I mean, you might remember the showing of Superman and Orion dwarfing planets from the multiverse and Superman being shocked by that.

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The multiverse of DC exists on a lower level than the New Gods do. Just to interact with the universe, all New Gods have to significantly nerf themselves.

Do you remember Darkseid dying, and it almost destroying the Multiverse? The only reason that was happening was that his death caused his actual body to start falling on the multiverse outside of the Sphere of the Gods, which had some very real effects, such as a "time crunch" where "weeks got smashed into days"

And Darkseid isn't the only one that is the platonic ideal with the "True Form".

As Batman explains, New Gods are living ideas. Platonic concepts from a different world. And Darkseid isn't the only one whose existence is beyond universal. They all are.

You have to bear in mind, this isn't Orion creating illusions or attacking anyone. He is just showing them a glimpse into his true form.

Their conceptual importance and existence go as far as having New Genesis Gods creating Universes while meditating ("twisted" due to the madness that came from Orion tainting the Source, which in turn, influenced the gods)

When annoyed (and slightly insane), Highfather himself was capable of spinning a cosmos just to threaten his adopted son with Disciplinary action.

Their feats usually don't look like much. Because they way their powers work is usually just not flashy enough.

They exist and influence things, but when they want to intentionally interact with lower levels of existence, they rarely showcase themselves as being much more powerful than really strong heralds. I mean, even his howls can shake the cosmos and extend his voice across the multiverse so that Orion can hear him on Earth.

When we aren't talking about universe-shaping forces of the New Gods, the Highfather is much more reasonable as a character. Let's see how his usual battle feats compare to what Nightmare did outside of his realm.

Naturally, being the wise-old "Moses" archetype, we don't get a lot of combat feats for him in the PC Continuity, but in Post Flashpoint, for a while, we had a very different Highfather. Why? Because he was so ridden with guilt over Mr Miracle's faith the Source had to remove his emotions from himself (and thus create the Infinity Man, the one to carry his empathy). So, i will use feats from all DC continuities (Rebirth made them all canon anyway)

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This doubles as a durability feat as Highfather was not influenced by the reality warping caused by Kyle's accidental use of the Life Equation

Oh, and make no mistake, in this story, Kyle was Universal in power.

The next showing i want to discuss was when Izaya decided to face Mister Miracle during the time Scott Free attained access to the same power Highfather wields.

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That in and of itself shows that Highfather would easily and consistently beat the God of Death if he chose to. But, he then proceeded to do something else. Just easily take away the weapon from Scott and effortlessly defend against Scott's following attack.

Both high level energy manipulation and reality warping don't do much to him, while he himself has spread destruction at a much higher scale than you've shown Nightmare can withstand.

For starters, he is more than quick enough to completely outpace Nightmare whether in physical combat (which Nightmare rarely uses, but he does have a tendency to reach there) or in reactionary speed allowing him to defend himself or chain attacks against Nightmare.

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Highfather has also effortlessly reacted to Lightray's attacks, and transformed Lightray into a ball of mud before the light of his attack reached Izaya.

While, like Nightmare, you aren't very likely to get Highfather to fight you physically, one big difference is that you really do not want to catch those hands. Highfather has consistently shown that he can physically contend with Darkseid, and that includes the Teambusting New 52 Darkseid (to be clear, Darkseid was always powerful enough to be a teambuster, but he was physically lacking before New 52, post Flashpoint his physical feats went up by quite a margin, and Highfather is right there with him, as you will see)

So, let's quickly cover some of Highfather's physical feats before we move on:

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Most famously, he matched Uxas in a pure 1v1. The same Uxas that was fighting the entire Justice League, and doing quite well until they pushed him through a Boom Tube.

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If you want feats for Darkseid or Sinestro to make sure this scaling is impressive. Feel free to ask.

So, your official first move is to resort to using mental attacks. For that, I have one huge issue. And that is that you haven't actually shown us Nightmare ever do it. While this battle is bloodlusted, that doesn't mean that Nightmare will do things he never did.

Furthermore, it's hard to scale feats from someone else using an aspect of your powers. Especially if that someone is vastly more powerful than yourself.

So, when you show Mikaboshi do something, you really can't argue Nightmare is capable of doing the same.

But, just because i think you don't get access to that feat, doesn't mean that i don't have counters ready. First of all, the showing itself has one BIG keyword in it - MORTAL minds.

I would like to turn your attention to the fact that neither Thor nor Hercules were affected. Highfather is no mortal. In fact, in the cosmology of DC, he stands at a higher level of divinity than Thor.

It was well-explained by Thor

But, just to make sure I'm not skipping anything. Highfather does have defensive abilities for mind control.

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Highfather was also the only god to resist Bekka's Love "aura". Of course, I fully expect this area to become a big back-and-forth, I think we will have fun.

You are correct. Putting Nightmare down will be difficult. I mean, not impossible, as you implied, given that Mikaboshi showed us that all you need to do is remove his heart and destroy it:

But, I am under no illusion it would be easy for Highfather.

Thankfully, there are other avenues for me to explore. For starters, I hope you understand I didn't pick and choose my feats at random. There's a reason I've shown Mister Miracle using Highfather's powers to depower and banish the Black Racer. Being a conceptual entity doesn't give you unquestionable protection from the likes of Highfather.

Even with that in mind, I would also like to remind you that Nightmare has been defeated many times. In fact, every time. You don't have to kill your enemies permanently to beat them, or to win a CaV. Even if Highfather doesn't find a way to utterly destroy Nightmare, he doesn't have to, for me to win.

Highfather has abilities that would allow him to depower Nightmare, at least to a degree, turn him into a ball of mud, or BFR him to a cosmos designed specifically to torment him. Now, not saying I would go for a BFR win, but moving the fight from Dreaming into the New Genesis, for example, would benefit Highfather.

I am not saying any of those would for sure happen, I am just pointing out that there are, in fact, many ways for Highfather to take the W here.

So, your official first move is to resort to using mental attacks. For that, I have one huge issue. And that is that you haven't actually shown us Nightmare ever do it. While this battle is bloodlusted, that doesn't mean that Nightmare will do things he never did.

What? I have shown him using it on Eternity and the Avengers, for example. His latest appearance in Avengers(2023)#7 has him starting attacking the Avengers by putting them to sleep:

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As proved in the recap of the next issue:

Furthermore, it's hard to scale feats from someone else using an aspect of your powers. Especially if that someone is vastly more powerful than yourself.

So, when you show Mikaboshi do something, you really can't argue Nightmare is capable of doing the same.

Thor is more powerful than Xavier, but has no psychic abilities. Can you prove to me that Mikaboshi even had that sort of power before absorbing Nightmare? At any level? Besides, Nightmare's supposedly inferiority to Mikaboshi isn't exactly set in stone either. He was even said to dwarf Amatsu-Milaboshi and Lord Chaos, being in the same ballpark as Eternity as a conceptual being(Scarlet Witch Vol.2#14):

But, just because i think you don't get access to that feat, doesn't mean that i don't have counters ready. First of all, the showing itself has one BIG keyword in it - MORTAL minds.

I would like to turn your attention to the fact that neither Thor nor Hercules were affected. Highfather is no mortal. In fact, in the cosmology of DC, he stands at a higher level of divinity than Thor.

It was well-explained by Thor

The problem is, Nightmare has put Thor to sleep as shown in the scans I posted right above. Now, let's review how Thor broke out, shall we?

Simple answer: Wanda. If wasn't for her, Thor likely wouldn't be able to set himself free. The instance in Chaos War was to show his range, but Nightmare has indeed affected divine beings before.

But, just to make sure I'm not skipping anything. Highfather does have defensive abilities for mind control.

Highfather was also the only god to resist Bekka's Love "aura". Of course, I fully expect this area to become a big back-and-forth, I think we will have fun.

Well, during Loki: Journey Into Mystery Prose Novel, even Hellstrom's exorcism was unable to break Nightmare's grip over minds:

Again, I don't doubt that Highfather has resistance to it, but again, Nightmare has:

• Scan 1-2-3 ) Together with Dweller-in-Darkness, plaguing the entire Earth with fear(DSSS#40):

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He's been shown to extend way beyond that in certain instances, such as the entire universe(Doctor Strange: The Fate of Dreams):

The rough translation is:

"And I'll see if I can think of a way to help you before all dreamers in the universe are driven to madness?"

Nightmare, was once again, mentioned to be able to harness the dream energy of the entire universe, if sees fit(The Mysterious World of Doctor Strange):

You are correct. Putting Nightmare down will be difficult. I mean, not impossible, as you implied, given that Mikaboshi showed us that all you need to do is remove his heart and destroy it:

It's funny for you to say that since Nightmare has already survived Amatsu-Mikaboshi attacking his heart before:

Mikaboshi has gotten progressively more powerful in Chaos War, so much that it could kill Nightmare. Besides, I don't know why you're using that example. Mikaboshi has casually defeated Zeus in a similar manner, by impaling him:

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And I'd argue that Zeus should be around the same level as Highfather, at least in that storyline. Besides, we see instances of Nightmare shrugging off Strange's spells:

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But, I am under no illusion it would be easy for Highfather.

Thankfully, there are other avenues for me to explore. For starters, I hope you understand I didn't pick and choose my feats at random. There's a reason I've shown Mister Miracle using Highfather's powers to depower and banish the Black Racer. Being a conceptual entity doesn't give you unquestionable protection from the likes of Highfather.

Even with that in mind, I would also like to remind you that Nightmare has been defeated many times. In fact, every time. You don't have to kill your enemies permanently to beat them, or to win a CaV. Even if Highfather doesn't find a way to utterly destroy Nightmare, he doesn't have to, for me to win.

Highfather has abilities that would allow him to depower Nightmare, at least to a degree, turn him into a ball of mud, or BFR him to a cosmos designed specifically to torment him. Now, not saying I would go for a BFR win, but moving the fight from Dreaming into the New Genesis, for example, would benefit Highfather.

I am not saying any of those would for sure happen, I am just pointing out that there are, in fact, many ways for Highfather to take the W here.

I can see that Highfather is powerful and all, but I disagree with many of your points. Such as teleporting him out of his realm or leaving the Dream Dimension at all. Odin Force/All-Father Thor himself has admitted that couldn't leave the Dream Dimension, even with all his power, all Thor could do is bring the Avengers together and break the artifice:

Nightmare himself says that no one leaves his dimension without him wanting to. This is important because Thor was able to destroy and break free from a dimension created by Odin himself:

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That dimension was situated below the Yggdrasil Tree itself, as one of its many realms:

As for transmuting Nightmare, I'd say the same could happen. Nightmare has turned Doctor Strange into stone, shrunk his size and so on:

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This means Nightmare must also have a resistance to it, as well.