Looks like The Flash is gonne bomb harder than even Black Adam

The movie expected to open less than 60 million domestic. So much for the best superhero movie of all time.

i highly doubt that.

@tobeymaguire84: sales doesn’t equate quality. I personally think it’s just superhero fatigue, only a few superheroes are gonna be making big box office return. The Flash will probably have to rely on word of mouth

Ayy not surprised.

@straight-fire said:

There is no superhero fatigue. Guardians and Spiderverse has already disproved it. People are tired of mediocre and bad superhero movies. Its that simple

Coincidentally, the two movies that already had a ton of hype behind them because their predecessors did well. Superhero fatigue has been kicking in for sure the past 2 years. Guardians and Spiderverse doing well doesn't mean the superhero genre is popular again and that the sole reason for Flash doing bad is because it's mediocre or bad. The stuff with Ezra Miller, the DCEU's history of producing bad movies, and the movie releasing at the same time ATSV and Rise of the Beasts are in theatres are all contributing factors to its potential bomb.

Deserved for ruining nam ek

Let’s wait and see before jumping to conclusions.

@tobeymaguire84: Spider-Man is literally the most popular superhero and you’re comparing him to Flash? Even Guardians are well established at this point and on top of that the film was great which helps. If you can’t see the clear decline in box office for superhero movies then I don’t know what to tell you.

I think the decline between from Captain Marvel and The Marvels will be very telling. Hell Black Panther and Batman both went from 1 billion to 800 million in box office. Thor declined too, Shazam declined and this will continue to be the case.

The Marvels is not gonna decline but straight up nuke in the box office and thats because most people wont even know its a sequel to Captain Marvel and the overly comedic tone and Ms Marvel will repel the rest. Nothing to do with Supehero fatigue

@tobeymaguire84: anyone that watches the trailers and the posters will know it’s Captain Marvel. And the comedic tone has been the MCU’s formula since the first Avengers. Again if you can’t see the decline then you’re either delusional or in denial. It’s not even worth debating because it’s clear as day.

all the theaters near me are completely sold out the whole weekend. it’ll open over 100 million

Now imagine if these are the only theaters where people are gonna watch Flash lol.

Hahahahha it looks like shit I’m not surprised

Their is a diffrence between Adult humour and straight up joke meant for toddlers. She was barely in the trailer compared to Kamala or Monica and even in poster she looks like a side character

@tobeymaguire84: wait you think Avengers humour is adult humour?

Yea that billion dollar movie is gonna nuke because of internet nerds? Yea I doubt it

@kgb725: When did The Marvels make a billion?

When did it nuke at the box office ?

@ready_4_madness:

Uh, I don’t think several of those are good examples.

The first Black Panther was both a cultural event, and on top of that, the second one didn‘t have Chadwick Boseman.

The Batman was a reboot that had to overcome the sins of its previous version (DCEU), similar to how Batman Begins had to pay for the sins of Batman and Robin

Thor L&T ”declined“ because it didn’t have markets like China nor Russia like Ragnarok did. You add those markets to Love and Thunder (or take it away from Ragnarok) and L&T grossed more than it.

Shazam 2 declined.

All of that to say, there’s a shit ton of context that can’t be ignored.

@mike_fowler:

Chadwick Boseman wasn’t the draw, Black Panther was. Usually when the star dies, the numbers usually go up.

Batman’s a household name, he should be making a billion regardless. Especially when Joker and Aquaman accomplished that same feat like a year or two before that.

Fair enough for Thor, I didn’t know that.

Shazam declined

Suicide Squad declined

The Marvels will most likely be a decline

No Way Home needed nostalgia

Ant-Man declined

Eternals numbers weren’t to great

I wouldn’t be surprised if Aquaman declines

Same goes for Avengers

Black Adam had the biggest movie star and underperformed

Etc

Even if it does Bomb I still plan on seeing it. I just really don't complain anymore. Enjoy the Ride. We are getting massive CGI Movies every month now. I am just hoping it's Fun.

All of the is stuff gathered to say, there’s very particular reasons these films have declined. It’s less to do with “fatigue” and more to do with other underlying factors. Comparing MCU films to before ignores things like a release in China and Russia. Comparing DC films ignores the damage that the DCEU in general had on those films even before the pandemic. It’s looking at the numbers but not at the why regarding those numbers. Fatigue is the Transformers series decreasing like it did after the fourth film, or what the F&F series is starting to go through now.

@mike_fowler: all I see is excuses tbh. If there’s a clear decline between most superhero franchises then I personally have to make the conclusion that it’s fatigue. You guys will get there too eventually.

@ready_4_madness:

There's a decline in quality in the genre which corresponds with the decline in box office. It has nothing to do with CBM fatigue.

I would like to go see it just for Keaton's Batman and Sasha's Supergirl but I don't want to support anything with Ezra Miller

@ready_4_madness:

It’s not an “excuse“ that a pandemic happened. it’s not an “excuse” that CBMs lost some important markets box office wise over the past couple years and are only just kinda getting some back. It’s not an “excuse” that (shocker) movies that are on the middling/bad side are getting poor word of mouth and thus aren’t making as much. That’s box office common sense. You can make that “personal conclusion“ it’s fatigue and I’ll personally make a conclusion that you’re plugging your ears to clear context and doing the same thing people have been doing since 2012.

Gotg bol.3 isn't a good example for the point you are trying to make. Although the movie is a sucess it under performed in the box office. It made less money than its prequel even though it had a higher budget

By a little margin and that because of MCU past sins and its Still running

The flash overseas numbers are a disaster. First Shazam and now the Flash. Intresting how Aquaman 2 will perform

it is now estimated to open 125 million World wide. I guess the memes of CGI in social media is not gonna help it either. James Gunn got a lot of work cut out to make audience trust a non Batman DC Movie

I'm only going to see the movie because of Keaton and Affleck as Batmen, so I don't care how it does either way.

@boutatakeanl: The superhero genre is STILL popular IMHO. Just not garbage movies (not saying the Flash is, because I haven't seen it and I don't know if I will).

I mean, I'm always down to see a good Superhero movie. I guess we've just gotten a lot of shite the past few years. Might not be the genre as a whole.

On the other hand, I think you should see it. I've heard that it's a "good" movie and a solid 7/10.

So the Flash movie is projected to make less than Ant-Man and the Wasp Quantomania did in its opening weekend by a lot. This does not bode well for the DCU.

Flash fans coping. 😂😂😂

This won't be a classic nor will it be remembered in time. Failed at the box office? Check. Will it be forgotten? Yes.

This ^, why some people judge the quality of a movie off box office alone is beyond me. By this logic Captain Marvel would be one of the best comic book movie evaaaa but it's pretty horrible lol. So when I see people going on about "box office this, box office that" it makes me laugh, The Thing from the 80's got bashed by dumb critics and did bad at the box office yet is considered one of the best horror films ever by horror fans, nuff said.

Current on RT, critics rate Flash 67% vs fans and audience 86%....it's the same with Transformers ROTB, RT critics-53% vs fan/audience 91%. But apparently box office is the only thing that matters as oppose to fan feedback...😏

I agree with your point with super hero fatigue in general is happening, be it MCU or DC. It may not be a bad idea for both to slow down to be honest but probably won't happen, Gunn has his new vision for DC and Disney loves to milk anything with a MCU and SW badge on it.

You should stand by the same logic when The Marvels flop in box office but has 99% verfied audience score because the 3 Kamala Khan fans watched the movie and rated it on rotten tomatoes

The movie was absolutely horrid.

Pathetic Excuse of Directing, and this is the guy Gunn is giving Bold and the Brave.

Bringing back Reeve's Superman CGI was abysmal, infact the whole CGI for the movie was abysmal.

lol the movie wasn't horrid. The hate is real with some users in here. No, horrid would be movies like Captain Marvel and Catwoman....

@tobeymaguire84: Right I do for movies in general, I've said for years box office and critical reviews doesn't define the quality of the movie itself as both are a horrible source to go by in terms of if the movie is good or not, especially for DC movies, example Joker, Shazam FOTG and now Flash got slammed by critics yet fans enjoyed them in comparison to critical reception. Captain Marvel for instance where the critics just praise it yet 99% of fans I encounter hated it compare the critics scores and because it did well at the box office (albeit with help) normies thought "oh must be good" yet every diehard Marvel fan I've spoken to hated it and I don't blame them. This is also why I posted Transformers scores, or the Mario scores etc? Mario did great box office wise and while I did enjoy it, the critics hated it I can go on as far as critical reception is concerned. Box office is just what's trendy and popular anyway.

As far as Ms. Marvels, while I don't like Brie's version of CM we don't know if The Marvel's will flop or not, granted this time she doesn't have her movie shoehorned between Avenger movies cushioning it and being protected by Disney and RT but yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if fans feel blah with it and the critics have orgasms over it....we'll see though. I will predict it won't do as well box office wise as CM did, but as far as how the movie will be is another story.

@arctika:

Joker didn’t get “slammed by critics” for one. It’s got a 7.3/10 and was repeatedly praised for Joaquin‘s performance (even winning an Oscar for it along with its original score)

For two,

Shazam FOTG and now Flash got slammed by critics yet fans enjoyed them in comparison to critical reception

They got a B+ and a B on CinemaScore respectively, that is terrible fan/GA reception for superhero films, here‘s a question, do you think that Quantumania had good fan reception? Or Batman v Superman? Cause that’s the type of reception both movies are receiving/received fan reception wise, and I wish I was joking.

Actually yeah it did, half of them were trying to say "Joker will cause mass shootings blah, blah, blah" and hated it. Yeah well Phoenix's performance isn't the movie whole, not even the haters and critics are that stupid to bash his performance.

Critics and articles who hated Joker for stupid reasons like "inspiring violence, blah, blah, blah"

.https://www.deseret.com/entertainment/2019/9/26/20883375/joker-movie-controversy-criticism-reviews-joaquin-phoenix

https://time.com/5688305/joker-todd-phillips-review/

These are but two examples I can assure you there's plenty more...and btw as someone who myself suffers from mental health with anxiety disorder I can confirm this is pure bs with their whole "omg it mocks mental health" it does not if anything it shows how some people can act if they don't get proper city healthcare which as someone myself who lives in NYC I can definitely relate to, things getting out of hand depending on what the condition is.

As for Flash and in general I'm going off IMDB and RT fan feedback but when it comes to a movie I judge myself because I can think for myself I don't give a crap about box office or what some obnoxious critic thinks, critics, I never listen to on any platform since they don't know what they're talking about most of the time, and B+ isn't bad that's passing actually so not sure what you're talking about B+ being "terrible" lol far from terrible, terrible is C-, D downward realistically speaking.

BVS the Ultimate Cut most enjoyed from what I've heard and read from more fans and even some critics more informed ones like Jeremy Jahn's as lot more than the theatrical cut version for instance if I'm going to listen to a critic who knows what he's talking about as oppose to the Grace Randolphs and your average RT, CS critic. It's not the best comic movie but I'd still take it over crap like CM and She Hulk but of course you don't hear Comicvine talking about them being "bombing and being terrible" because people on here seem to think views and box numbers =great quality.

This article explains how CS cherrypicks their "rating system" by genre what may be good for a comedy may be bad for a serious movie which is ridiculous, so they essentially judge by genre lol...So they're essentially just making up their own rule system via the genre. Yeah...that sound's fair.😏

https://www.vulture.com/2017/09/here-are-the-only-19-movies-to-ever-receive-an-f-cinemascore.html

BVS EC fan feedback like every other film is what I'd listen to not the critics, this article explains why not to listen to RT critics...and yes while 63% isn't great, it's still much higher than critics feedback of 29% which is far too low if you ask me, yeah the movie wasn't perfect granted but these are the same people who will ignore the problems with GB 2016, Captain Marvel etc yet are quick to trash WW 84? Why's that?

WW 84 got critics 58% vs 73% fans/audience vs Captain Marvel critics 79% vs 45% fans audience, I rest my case...

https://editorial.rottentomatoes.com/article/rotten-tomatoes-is-wrong-about-batman-v-superman-dawn-of-justice/

BTW I loved WW 2017 much more than 84 by far, but if "unbiased" critics are going to trash a bad comic book movie at least be more objective and fair about it from both DC and Marvel....

At any rate like ready4 stated already and I'll stick to it, a good movie shouldn't be and isn't defined by box office and critical reception overall but we can agree to disagree.

@emmafrostxmen: Made only $55 million domestically, $130 million globally. You might have been correct and you might've been wrong, depending on what you meant.

@arctika:

Actually no it didn’t. just because they wouldn’t recommend it doesn’t change the absolute fact that it was rated a solid 7.3/10 on average. Quite literally most aspects of the movie were praised, from Joaquin’s performance to the score to the cinematography to the visual style. There being controversy regarding its subject matter because of what happened in the past doesn’t change that.

I'm going off IMDB and RT, more reputable than CS

Ah yes, the one that has people able to rate something without even seeing it, and the one that ever since it added verified rating tends to correlate to CS greatly.

don't have as many real fans as the former

My man, it specifically surveys people that see the movie opening weekend, y’know, people that actually see the movie, and the actual fans that see the movie first, y’know, the ones that are most likely to be the diehard “I must see this movie” type of fans.

B+ isn't bad that's passing actually so not sure what you're talking about B+ being "terrible" lol far from terrible, terrible is C-, D downward.

With all due respect, this shows you don’t get how CS grades work. They’re not school grades. It judges how the GA find a film and whether or not it meets expectations for them. Genres of film have certain aspects to take into account. For example, a Horror film with an A+ is extremely rare because of the type of film horror tends to be. For Blockbusters, an A- is the minimum grade to indicate the GA like the film. When a blockbuster starts going into B+ range, it means the audience are divisive/leaning towards disliking it. When it reaches B, it’s negative. You wanna guess the CBM that have reached B range? Catwoman, Green Lantern, Quantumania, need I go on? Wanna know which ones are B+? X-Men Origins, TASM2, WW 1984.

Funny BVS the extended cut most enjoyed from what I've heard and read,

It’s easier for “most” to have enjoyed it when the people that watched it were those that already liked the theatrical cut to begin with. Most people that watched the theatrical cut, aren’t likely going to want to watch an extended version of it.

I'd still take it over crap like CM and She Hulk but of course you don't hear Comicvine talking about them being "bombing and being terrible" because they think views means something when it doesn't.

Im gonna be honest, I take majority of opinions here with a grain of salt, especially when it comes to discussing the opinions of the general audience. And we’re talking about whether or not the GA audience take to certain movies, CinemaScore is the best metric to use for that considering it actually gathers data for it and uses it during the opening weekend (when the people most likely to like it are seeing it). Views absolutely matter.

This article explains how CS cherrypicks their "rating system" by genre what may be good for a comedy may be bad for a serious movie which is ridiculous, so they essentially judge by genre lol...So they're essentially just making up their own rule system via the genre. Yeah...that sound's fair.😏

With all due respect, you think you’re making a point with this when you’re really not. It’s about surveying people that see the film opening day. Do you think target demographics aren’t a thing? Do you think that the exact same people see the exact same genre of film? Going with a school example, do you think a B in an AP class is equivalent to a B in a regular class?

WW 84 gotcritics 58% vs 73% fans/audience vs Captain Marvel critics 79% vs 45% fans audience, I rest my case...

You do know that Captain Marvel got review bombed right? Unless you genuinely believe that Captain Marvel getting over 10,000 negative votes before it even came out (and yes, that did happen) is somehow proof that it didn’t. there’s a reason the verified audience tab got implemented by RT, and it was partly because of CM and Black Panther. WW 84 came out after that system got implemented.

BTW I loved WW 2017 much more than 84 by far, but if "unbiased" critics are going to trash a bad comic book movie at least be more objective and fair about it from both DC and Marvel....

Objective and fair according to whom, you? That’s always been my problem with this logic, it comes down to “I’m right, you’re wrong, and you’re not objectively looking at this“ when its like, no, it’s not that black and white

At any rate like ready4 stated already and I'll stick to it, a good movie shouldn't be and isn't defined by box office and critical reception overall but we can agree to disagree.

I’m literally not talking about whether or not a movie is good (I don’t care whether this one is or not, I’ve no interest in seeing it), I’m talking about what the fan reception actually is/was. I’m not talking about critica reception, you’re the one that brought that up

@mike_fowler said:

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Actually yes you just did...before You literally said "Joker didn't get slammed by critics" this is false as most hated it which I posted a few examples for you attacking the movie for ridiculous reasons. But since you don't believe me here I'll give you a few more examples.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/a354wj/joker-todd-phillip-movie-2019-reviews

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2019/oct/03/joker-review-joaquin-phoenix-todd-phillips

https://slate.com/culture/2019/10/joker-movie-review-joaquin-phoenix-violence.html

So if I may, what proof do you have exactly that the people they "survey" aren't biased one way or another and/or possibly critics posing as fans exactly? So you have issues with RT audience yet you believe random people off the street supposedy fans out of the theatre? This sounds like pre elections when the news says "this candidate will win due to post voting on the street polls" then that person winds up losing?

With all due respect you didn't read my link I posted that proves why CS's "ratings" are flawed with how they work they literally go by genre to determine their rating system it's not universal which is dumb. Read the article Iink I posted it explains how they change their rating system with a comedy vs a more serious movie....because that makes sense. And yes the article even states and talks about the school grades comparison except for the genre thing. This is like well if you struggle more in math than english, I'll grade you different because different subject...lol. And yet all of those movies prove my point with the ratings feedback with RT. I don't listen to any of them, but you do know most people go by RT and IMDB over CS right? So you actually believe given the class the rating should change? lol Ok so you're just trying to justify a flawed rating system in other words. Every class should have the same grading system, it's the point of most schools if you're going to have different rating systems per subject that's beyond dumb. So if someone is great in Math but can't draw or horrible in English you're going to give them the benefit or vice versa? Yeah horrible system...

Actually, I'm making a point but if you want to deny said point that's on you, the article is self explanatory guy. Their system is flawed, CS that is...they're literally judging movie ratings differently by difference in genre, it's stupid. If you're going to have a system have a universal rating system at least...

That's interesting because I showed it to a few friends of mine who've never seen BVS and have several online who never saw the theatrical but saw the UE first liked it then watched the theatrical version to see the talk and felt the same way that the extended and ultimate cut were better...let's put this way, regardless of who's seen the initial film or not most tend to feel like this guy who mind you if I'm going to watch a critic will be Jahn's since he actually knows what he's talking about more than the Grace Randolph's...curious, how reputable do you feel about Grace? Surely you've heard about her ridiculously flawed points regarding Little Mermaid and Mario? Reason why I bring her up is because she's a "professional movie critic" who a lot of people take seriously which is kind of scary if you ask me but I digress. Let's just say her reasons for defensing LM from fans who didn't like it and hating Mario were beyond ridiculous not to mention ignorant...

Honestly, Views only matter as far as general ratings/viewer count to help determine and gauge whether or not the studio/network will bring back said show or not otherwise it's just what's trendy. And sometimes even then, look at Batwoman, that show factually got less and less views and worse ratings as each seaosn went on yet lasted 3 seasons then you have Constantine and Swamp Thing that got canned after one. Most will tell you the latter are much better shows. LOTR ROP also got views, every SW show gets views but have you read the fan feedback(in general not just on here with all due respect) regarding certain SW shows and ROP? Not exactly good...but I do agree with you regarding CV, clearly this site favors MCU in general over DC and DCEU it's pretty obvious be it battle topics of general which is why I tend to take CV these days with a grain of salt when it comes to discussing both. Sure some I may agree with but I find more I disagree with I just don't feel like getting into 100 debates when it's not going to change anything and most people tend to have a mind set.

Nah it was just because RT are biased, paid MCU Disney shills actually. Reviewed bombed, what proof do you or anyone have of this? You know that's all bs right and what they wanted you to believe because the truth is real fans you know the "die hards" just didn't like it? But the truth is Disney wasn't going to allow nor RT CM to fail because it was literally shoehorned in between Avengers IW and Endgame, but you can believe otherwise if you wish. That's the truth because I'm so sure nobody ever "review bombs" DC movies or anything else only CM right? Sure...As for WW84 it didn't get the treatment because it's not an MCU movie, yes it was lackluster but funny whenever I ask people which they prefer they pick 84 over CM in general and RT says it all, even after their "adjusted" reviews since they deemed all who hated it "review bombers and trolls" uhh huh. Funny when BA got review bombed by critics, they expected you to believe it to be true, yet the fan feedback again much higher than critical reception...and again not saying BA was great but it certainly wasn't 38% bad, audience/fans gave it 88%....that's a 50% difference so why is it not "review bombing" when critics clearly do it but only fans regarding an MCU movie? hmm. If only every other comic movie got the same protection that CM had with Disney paying for tickets for a bad movie and RT rigging the ratings from fans.

https://cosmicbook.news/disney-manipulated-captain-marvel-perception

No, it's not according to "me" according to just being fair and being objective maybe? So you feel a critic shouldn't be knowledgable about whatever they're critiquing and be purposely ignorant and stupid for lack of a better term when reviewing a movie as they've proven with Joker and Mario? Like I said I'll take the general fan view diehard or not over your average critic any day. But good luck with your CS as a way to gauge movies before seeing them yourself. No proof is needed in something that is common sense

On your CS preference is your preference I don't by any of them as far as what people say other than general fan feedback, any of them I've seen arguments elsewhere explaining why any of them can be rigged or have biased opinions but hey you do you dude. I just prefer to judge a movie by my own eyes and not what someone else says, but if I was going to I'd listen to other fans before I listen to critics generally speaking. With Flash while I enjoyed it, even before and after I'm hearing way more positive things than negative overall. Not saying it's the best comic movie ever but it's certainly not the worst either not even close. That is all I'll say on that front.

I was talking about box office and critical reviews being a stupid way to gauge whether or not a movie is good or not, you addressed me first about it so I just responded in kind. Like I said to you before, you feel differently that's fine so may as well agree to disagree at this point.

@ghostodoofus2: i’m going to lie and pretend i meant globally