Analyzing Luke Vs Vader and proving they are not equals (EU)
By Supreme101 29 Comments
This is not a response to RedSiths blog and other posts just to clarify. I will be making my own standalone blog analyzing Luke vs Vader in ROTJ and prove they are NOT Equals at the time.
The ROTJ:
The fight begins with Luke and Vader pacing around then begin striking at each other.
Slowly, Luke and Vader circled. Lightsaber high above his head, Luke readied his attack from classic first-position; the Dark Lord held a lateral stance, in classic answer. Without announcement, Luke brought his blade straight down—then, when Vader moved to parry, Luke feinted and cut low. Vader counterparried, let the impact direct his sword toward Luke’s throat...but Luke met the riposte and stepped back. The first blows, traded without injury. Again, they circled.
Immediately at the start Vader goes straight for Luke's throat with Luke managing to avoid it. This could be used as a stance for Vader trying his best. against Luke and Luke who is only defending holding his own. However Vader was not trying at all as here it says. This was said to be a mere test by Vader to see Luke's skill and that it was a shame that he couldn't let Luke kill the emperor yet and that he needed more extensive tutelage.
Vader was impressed with Luke’s speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn’t let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn’t ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first—training by both Vader and Palpatine— before he’d be ready to assume his place at Vader’s right hand, ruling the galaxy.
Luke even rushes Vader when he hasn't even been able to collectively gather his thoughts.
Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again—much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader’s phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swiveling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously—but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled
While Vader is floored Luke begins to feel temptations and conflict inside himself. This could have influenced the fight as Luke wouldn't be capable of fighting at his best.
Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor’s side. Yes, even that. Luke didn’t bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so
overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations.
He had the power; the choice was his.
And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer.
However this was stated to have no affect on him as he did not swoon or recoil
It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil.
Vader gets up and begins to feel anger as he feels that his son might best due to being astounded by his power.
He took one step forward.
For the first time, the thought entered Vader’s consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy’s timing, which was honed to a thought’s-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling 1n on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
However this does not automatically equate to Luke being directly equal to him as shown with past sequence the fact it says might.
Luke feels internal conflict once again when being goaded to use his anger by Palp. However this does not last long or happen while they are trading blows as Luke stepped back and relaxed.
Luke faltered a moment—then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity—gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation.
He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being.
Right after Vader attacks Luke Luke being driven to run Luke refuses to fight him and Vaders became more angry and even the key phrase comes saying Vader did not want to try his best if Luke didn't fight.
In that instant, Vader attacked. He lunged half up the stairs, forcing Luke to reverse defensively. He bound the boy’s blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry. Vader jumped over the railing to the floor beneath the platform on which Luke stood.
“I will not fight you, Father,” Luke stated.
“You are unwise to lower your defenses,” Vader warned. His anger was layered, now—he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest.
Then this comes saying if killing a boy is something Vader could also do. Note it says could not would and even then if he would do that that means he wouldn't be trying his best either due to the previous line.
But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn’t fight...then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game.
Then Luke says that Vader is conflicted and that his thoughts betray him.
“Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you... the conflict. You could not bring yourself to kill me before—and you won't destroy me now.” Twice before, in fact—to Luke’s recollection—Vader could have killed him, but didn’t. In the dogfight over the first Death Star, and later in the lightsaber duel on Bespin. He thought of Leia, briefly now, too—of how Vader had had fer in his clutches once, had even tortured her... but didn’t kill her.
Then Vader gets immediately triggered by it.
This accusation really made Vader angry. He could tolerate much from the insolent child, but this was insufferable. He must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning. “Once again, you underestimate the power of the dark side......"
Vader then throws his blade at Luke and Luke dodges running to take cover
Vader threw his scintillating blade—it sliced through the supports holding up the gantry on which Luke was perched, then swept around and flew back into Vader’s hand. Luke tumbled to the ground, then rolled down another level, under the tilting platform. In the shadow of the darkened overhang, he was out of sight. Vader paced the area like a cat, seeking the boy; but he wouldn’t enter the shadows of the overhang.
“You cannot hide forever, Luke.”
“You'll have to come in and get me,” replied the disembodied voice.
Then the moment comes Vader's evil is compromised.
“I will not give you the advantage that easily.” Vader felt his intentions increasingly ambiguous in this conflict; the purity of his evil was being compromised. The boy was clever indeed—Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now.
Luke while hiding still not wishing to fight puts down his saber and gives it to Vader from a distance.
“I wish no advantage, father. I will not fight you. Here...take my weapon.” Luke knew full well this might be his end, but so be it. He would not use Darkness to fight Darkness. Perhaps it would be left to Leia, after all, to carry on the struggle, without him. Perhaps she would know a way he didn’t know; perhaps she could find a path. For now, though, he could see only two paths, and one was into Darkness; and one was not.
Luke put his lightsaber on the ground, and rolled it along the floor toward Vader. It stopped halfway between them, in the middle of the low overhead area. The Dark Lord reached out his hand—Luke’s lightsaber jumped into it. He hooked it to his belt and, with grave uncertainty, entered the shadowy overhang.
He was picking up additional feelings from Luke, now, new crosscurrents of doubt. Remorse, regret, abandonment. Shades of pain. But somehow not directly related to Vader. To others, to...Endor. Ah, that was it—the Sanctuary Moon where his friends would soon die. Luke would learn soon enough: friendship was different on the dark side. A different thing altogether.
Vader speaks to Luke about joining then stops to sense his feelings and thoughts. This refers to Leia
“Give yourself to the dark side, Luke,” he entreated. “Tt is the only way you can save your friends. Yes, your thoughts betray you, son. Your feelings for them are strong, especially for—”
Vader stopped. He sensed something.
Luke withdrew further into shadow. He tried to hide, but there was no way to hide what was in his mind— Leia was in pain. Her agony cried to him now, and his spirit cried with her. He tried to shut it out, to shut it up, but the cry was loud, and he couldn’t stifle it, couldn’t leave it alone, had to cradle it openly, to give it solace.
Vader’s consciousness invaded that private place.
Luke knowing Vader senses his thoughts regarding Leia Vader talks about turning Leia which sets off Luke.
No!” screamed Luke.
Vader was incredulous. “Sister? Sister!” he bellowed. “Your feelings have now betrayed her, too... Twins!” he roared triumphantly. “Obi-Wan was wise to hide her, but now his failure is complete.” His smile was clear to Luke, through the mask, through the shadows, through all the realms of Darkness. “If you will not turn to the Dark Side, perhaps she will.”
This, then, was Luke’s breaking point. For Leia was everyone’s last unflagging hope. If Vader turned his twisted, misguided cravings on her...
Luke then rushes Vader enraged and attacking in frenzy he never known basically rage boosted.
“Never!” he screamed. His lightsaber flew off Vader’s belt into his own hand, igniting as it came to him.
He rushed to his father with a frenzy he’d never known. Nor had Vader. The gladiators battled fiercely, sparks flying from the clash of their radiant weapons, but it was soon evident that the advantage was all Luke’s. And he was pressing it. They locked swords, body to body. When Luke pushed Vader back to break the clinch, the Dark Lord hit his head on an overhanging beam in the cramped space. He stumbled backward even farther, out of the low-hanging area. Luke pursued him relentlessly.
Blow upon blow, Luke forced Vader to retreat—back, onto the bridge that crossed the vast, seemingly bottomless shaft to the power core. Each stroke of Luke’s saber pummeled Vader, like accusations, like screams, like shards of hate.
The Dark Lord was driven to his knees. He raised his blade to block yet another onslaught—and Luke slashed Vader’s right hand off at the wrist.
Luke had won.
The hand, along with bits of metal, wires, and electronic devices, clattered uselessly away while Vader's lightsaber tumbled over the edge of the span, into the endless shaft below, without a trace.
Luke stared at his father’s twitching, severed, mechanical hand—and then at his own black-gloved artificial part—and realized suddenly just how much he’d become like his father. Like the man he hated.
Now onto The Rise and fall of Darth Vader novel which tells this fight in Vader's POV.
The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
The battle Starts off immediately with Luke attempting to kill palp with his saber but Vader moves faster.
They continue to battle, Vader has throught's going through his mind about not wanting Luke to to become the emperors apprentice. Luke then gains the upperhand and kicks Vader knocking him down the stairs snapping a cable in his cybernetic leg. Luke then calls out Vader on his internal confliction
Vader throws his saber at at Luke but his focus was on the catwalk supports he was standing on.
As the fight continues Luke hides Vader tries getting him to come out to give himself over to the dark side then he senses Luke's inner thoughts.
Luke as established gets triggered from it and goes on to attack Vader full of anger. Rage amped. Vader takes a glancing blow which ruptures his life support which is very vital to him. Luke also then severs his wrist.
Luke had only won due to various reasons: Vader was conflicted therefore nerfing him Luke was rage amped and fighting a hold back Vader and conflicted Vader. Vader's life support was struck and ruptured.
Sidious level Scaling:
Luke refuses to join Sidious. Sidious retaliates by blasting him with lighting.
Luke here is shown unable to do anything all while Sidious calls Luke feeble and easily overpowers him.
Vader seeing this retaliates and betrays Sidious by carrying him and throwing him down the shaft.
Vader completely powers through Sidiou's full power all while weakened and vulnerable to Force Lightning.
At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine’s upper arms to his torso. Weaker than he’d ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act—the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will—his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.
Credit ROTJ novel
It took all of his remaining strength to seize the emperor from behind lift him off his feet and carry him to the open elevator shaft
Credit Rise and Fall of Darth vader
He did not tank less lightning than Luke the novel saying the lightning was spread out is completely inaccurate.
Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader.
What actually happens is that the lightning arcs back to hit them both.
Sidious in the guide Jedi Vs Sith says Vader was strong enough to defeat him
Conclusion:
They are not equals too much evidence from the main storytelling say as much
- Vader was stronger than Luke
- Luke only won due to Vaders confliction life support and rage amp
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