@bigbaby: I’m unsure on the current status of Raven and Wanda, but I think Clea should be a notch above Zatanna, so I’d lean towards marvel.
Raven's power level has been so vague on this(and other) sites that it's actually hard to measure where she stands. Like, I hear about her soul self, but don't really know what else she does, other than being "insanely powerful".
Raven is by far the fastest on the draw, like way, way faster, especially lately, considering she outreacted and eliminated Hermes, the god of speed. And a bloodlusted one with no morals will decapitate the enemies in a moment, using her soul self energy manipulation (as how she cut off the hand of her brother).
And beside probably few really silly PIS moments, Raven is not anywhere near a glass, considering that other times she can take serious punches from Wondergirl or WW or her own brothers without to get KOed or even seriously deterred or affected. Or rip the heart out of her half brother Belial chest using her hand and claws. She is not a simple human, but also the daughter of Trigon.
She might not be exactly as refined as Zatanna or Clea in using magic, but she is hanging around that level anyway and frankly really doesn't need to. Because she (and I assume second to her, Wanda) have way more raw power and reaction speed and also various other means beside simple magic (like telepathy/empathy, even physical force, also teleportation to other dimensions, time manipulation, etc)
Glass canon argument is basically useless for characters with shields and Raven isn't really glass canon while zatanna has the best pain tolerance. Clea doesn't have the feats to actually contest outside of scaling to strange, wanda's attack potency isn't as impressive as the DC girls. The DC girls take the majority.
Wait nvm, just saw this was morals off. Raven unleashes Unkindness and devours everyone on both sides.
How powerful is unkindness Raven outside of the future state version?
Well she has no feats outside of the Future State version. But it has been made pretty clear that she can reach that state again anytime by just absorbing everything and everyone.
Wait nvm, just saw this was morals off. Raven unleashes Unkindness and devours everyone on both sides.
How powerful is unkindness Raven outside of the future state version?
Well she has no feats outside of the Future State version. But it has been made pretty clear that she can reach that state again anytime by just absorbing everything and everyone.
She just needs to absorb Wanda and Clea, Zatanna also has the upside down man who eats magic, lol.
Raven is by far the fastest on the draw, like way, way faster, especially lately, considering she outreacted and eliminated Hermes, the god of speed. And a bloodlusted one with no morals will decapitate the enemies in a moment, using her soul self energy manipulation (as how she cut off the hand of her brother).
And beside probably few really silly PIS moments, Raven is not anywhere near a glass, considering that other times she can take serious punches from Wondergirl or WW or her own brothers without to get KOed or even seriously deterred or affected. Or rip the heart out of her half brother Belial chest using her hand and claws. She is not a simple human, but also the daughter of Trigon.
She might not be exactly as refined as Zatanna or Clea in using magic, but she is hanging around that level anyway and frankly really doesn't need to. Because she (and I assume second to her, Wanda) have way more raw power and reaction speed and also various other means beside simple magic (like telepathy/empathy, even physical force, also teleportation to other dimensions, time manipulation, etc)
Good summarisation but Zatanna, Wanda and Clea can manipulate time, teleport to other dimensions use telepathy and even have feats of physical force.
More confident in Clea Strange and co to win in a dogfight. Zatanna and Raven are infamously made of glass.
It's not like Wanda has hulk level durability or Clea strange. Are you forgetting that they've both being hurt by physical force and Wanda has the worst track record when it comes to physical attack.
Wanda took punches from Hippolyta who is in the 70 to 100 ton class and was stabbed and she was still standing. As she also later revealed she easily regenerated from any battle damage.
Neither Raven or Zatanna have a fraction of that physical strength.
Good summarisation but Zatanna, Wanda and Clea can manipulate time, teleport to other dimensions use telepathy and even have feats of physical force.
Sure, but not at the level and especially speed that Raven can do all of these. She can casually send people to the Phantom zone or whatever hellish dimension or void (her soul self is a void that inhabits the space between mortal realms and the afterlife iirc and she usually have total control there).
And she is fast enough to snatch an unwilling Wally with her soul self, despite he was alert and facing her directly. Or she can casually dodge punches from an bloodlusted, morals off Superboy (Superman son from the future) despite he was at just an arm length in front of her. Or lately she outreacted and eliminated Hermes, the god of speed and gods messenger.
She will act faster than any other can react, in fact she had before taken out Zatanna and had put her in a time stasis before she could do anything (ironically, iirc, Zatanna and the other members of the Justice League that Raven had did that to at that time, all at once, were "saved" by Trigon, who teleported them out of that just to mess up with the Titans, none of JL, including Zatanna knowing what happened to them)
And as raw power and abilities, Raven rules supreme over them, considering what she can do at full power as Unkindness
Wanda took punches from Hippolyta who is in the 70 to 100 ton class and was stabbed and she was still standing. As she also later revealed she easily regenerated from any battle damage.
Neither Raven or Zatanna have a fraction of that physical strength.
I don't know about Zatanna but Raven definitely is superior to Wanda in that regard, she is at least as good (I say better at her best feats) as going on after getting serious hits and is surely superior as what physical damage she can inflict to others, especially a morals off, bloodlusted Raven
Good summarisation but Zatanna, Wanda and Clea can manipulate time, teleport to other dimensions use telepathy and even have feats of physical force.
Sure, but not at the level and especially speed that Raven can do all of these. She can casually send people to the Phantom zone or whatever hellish dimension or void (her soul self is a void that inhabits the space between mortal realms and the afterlife iirc and she usually have total control there).
And she is fast enough to snatch an unwilling Wally with her soul self, despite he was alert and facing her directly. Or she can casually dodge punches from an bloodlusted, morals off Superboy (Superman son from the future) despite he was at just an arm length in front of her. Or lately she outreacted and eliminated Hermes, the god of speed and gods messenger.
She will act faster than any other can react, in fact she had before taken out Zatanna and had put her in a time stasis before she could do anything (ironically, iirc, Zatanna and the other members of the Justice League that Raven had did that to at that time, all at once, were "saved" by Trigon, who teleported them out of that just to mess up with the Titans, none of JL, including Zatanna knowing what happened to them)
And as raw power and abilities, Raven rules supreme over them, considering what she can do at full power as Unkindness
Sure, Raven is the fastest no contest. Her feat of bfr'ing Hermes faster than he could react is just above the ladies here.
Wasn't zee in battle and not attacking Raven? That should be a sneak attack and shouldn't count.
Full power is debatable but you also have a point there.
More confident in Clea Strange and co to win in a dogfight. Zatanna and Raven are infamously made of glass.
It's not like Wanda has hulk level durability or Clea strange
don't think I said that
Are you forgetting that they've both being hurt by physical force
who's being hurt by physical force in a match with four mystics
Wanda has the worst track record
prove it
Wow, first time asking for proof
not really
You made a fight with four mystics about physical force
what fight
Wanda has beaten by a stone
been beaten by a stone you mean
if we're just going off the worst low-ends possible then idk what's the point of the debate tbh. It seems like a pretty weak way to judge a overall track record off of one instance
Wanda took punches from Hippolyta who is in the 70 to 100 ton class and was stabbed and she was still standing. As she also later revealed she easily regenerated from any battle damage.
Neither Raven or Zatanna have a fraction of that physical strength.
That's an outlier unless we want to use the same rules for the other girls then zee and Raven far out scale Wanda in that regard.
Wanda took punches from Hippolyta who is in the 70 to 100 ton class and was stabbed and she was still standing. As she also later revealed she easily regenerated from any battle damage.
Neither Raven or Zatanna have a fraction of that physical strength.
That's an outlier unless we want to use the same rules for the other girls then zee and Raven far out scale Wanda in that regard.
More confident in Clea Strange and co to win in a dogfight. Zatanna and Raven are infamously made of glass.
It's not like Wanda has hulk level durability or Clea strange
don't think I said that
Are you forgetting that they've both being hurt by physical force
who's being hurt by physical force in a match with four mystics
Wanda has the worst track record
prove it
Wow, first time asking for proof
not really
You made a fight with four mystics about physical force
what fight
Wanda has beaten by a stone
been beaten by a stone you mean
if we're just going off the worst low-ends possible then idk what's the point of the debate tbh. It seems like a pretty weak way to judge a overall track record off of one instance
How is that a low-end? Wanda has also been knocked out by similar force. It's not like she can consistently take attacks from 100 tonners with little issues or something so what is the consistent one to you?
More confident in Clea Strange and co to win in a dogfight. Zatanna and Raven are infamously made of glass.
It's not like Wanda has hulk level durability or Clea strange
don't think I said that
Are you forgetting that they've both being hurt by physical force
who's being hurt by physical force in a match with four mystics
Wanda has the worst track record
prove it
How is that a low-end
getting knocked down by a rock is a very low-end on the scale of environmental jobbing lol. It's up there with getting KO'd by a door or something to that extent
It's not like she can consistently take attacks from 100 tonners with little issues or something so what is the consistent one to you
idk can she? i haven't seen anything to suggest she can't from her track record
getting knocked down by a rock is a very low-end on the scale of environmental jobbing lol. It's up there with getting KO'd by a door or something to that extent
Let's say that it is a low-end, how durable is she consistently?
idk can she? i haven't seen anything to suggest she can't from her track record
Track record? Like getting knocked out by a rock or defeated by a sword hit or by Thor falling on her and more. I mean try to prove how durable she is.
getting knocked down by a rock is a very low-end on the scale of environmental jobbing lol. It's up there with getting KO'd by a door or something to that extent
Let's say that it is a low-end, how durable is she consistently
I'm asking you that
idk can she? i haven't seen anything to suggest she can't from her track record
Wanda took punches from Hippolyta who is in the 70 to 100 ton class and was stabbed and she was still standing. As she also later revealed she easily regenerated from any battle damage.
Neither Raven or Zatanna have a fraction of that physical strength.
That's an outlier unless we want to use the same rules for the other girls then zee and Raven far out scale Wanda in that regard.
Yeah, like Zatanna:
and Raven:
Both tanking punches from Wonder Woman.
Taking punches from FODDER woman is not impressive.
Wanda took punches from Hippolyta who is in the 70 to 100 ton class and was stabbed and she was still standing. As she also later revealed she easily regenerated from any battle damage.
Neither Raven or Zatanna have a fraction of that physical strength.
That's an outlier unless we want to use the same rules for the other girls then zee and Raven far out scale Wanda in that regard.
Yeah, like Zatanna:
and Raven:
Both tanking punches from Wonder Woman.
Taking punches from FODDER woman is not impressive.
Hey Geek, taking punches from WONDER WOMAN is impressive hippolyta can't match up to it.
Wanda is definitely the most durable of the bunch. Let's be real here.... I guess you could make a case for Clea due to her Faltine heritage, but it works out in the end, since they're both on the same team.
In a purely physical battle, she takes a beating from a villain who's clashed with the Doom Maidens and also stomped Ares in combat; her respect thread can be seen in the link above. Scan: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - (Scarlet Witch 2023 #5)
OT: Zee and Raven have more feats like this compared to the marvel girls. I don't know why durability is even debated here.
It's from DC: The Doomed and the Damned.
I'm really not sure why durability is even being discussed here, especially physical durability. No one here uses physical attacks, and everyone here uses shields. But let's see what Wanda has going for her:
Gallery
1) Taken out by Thor being tossed into her. 2) Taken out by Paste-Pot Pete. 3) Harmed by a metal projectile. 4) Taken out by a rock. 5) Backhanded by a thug. 6) Downed from being hit by a sword hilt. 7) Downed by Quicksilver being tossed into her.
Gallery
1) Was about to get her head crushed by a brute until QS intervened. 2-3) Hurt by Cyclops blast, dropped out of the sky, and struggled to get back up. 4) Blitzed by Joseph w/ Mysterium and downed due to her 2 fingers being sliced off. 5-6) Fails to react to Living Wind and gets blasted into a wall; struggles to get back up. 7) Hurt from Living Wind tossing Rogue into her.
Gallery
1) Hurt by Rogue being tossed into her. 2) Headbutted by Hope Summers, enough to break her nose and draw blood. 3) Punched by Rogue and has blood drawn. 4) Punched out by Hope Summers. 5) Tossed by an attack from Man Thing. 6) Hurt by a kick from Mantis.
As for Scythia:
Gallery
It's pretty interesting to me that despite her being a 70-100 tonner, she displayed nothing beyond building-level physicals throughout her fight with Wanda. Cratering the street, busting through a wall, and surviving having a small building dropped on her is the most she did... It's almost like she wasn't meant to be portrayed as a 70-100 tonner in this series. And despite being just a brick, Wanda really struggled against her, huh? Not to mention this was Scythia not holding back and actively out for blood.
It's pretty interesting to me that despite her being a 70-100 tonner, she displayed nothing beyond building-level physicals throughout her fight with Wanda. Cratering the street, busting through a wall, and surviving having a small building dropped on her is the most she did... It's almost like she wasn't meant to be portrayed as a 70-100 tonner in this series. And despite being just a brick, Wanda really struggled against her, huh? Not to mention this was Scythia not holding back and actively out for blood.
She actually didn't struggle at all since it all was a just a play to get her to see reason. Scythia wasn't a villain after all. She just had a misguided sense of duty. If Wanda would have actually wished her dead then it would have simply been so as Scythia is even correctly stating herself.
@galerion: I’m not sure how you can look at the whole fight and say Wanda wasn’t struggling. She was taking hits left and right and couldn’t put Scythia down. Had to resort to BFR, and was losing the fight for the most part. A statement that Wanda could have ended her right away kinda contradicts the fight itself.
Sure, Raven is the fastest no contest. Her feat of bfr'ing Hermes faster than he could react is just above the ladies here.
Wasn't zee in battle and not attacking Raven? That should be a sneak attack and shouldn't count.
Full power is debatable but you also have a point there.
They were fighting, Teen Titans vs Justice League, without Raven. When Raven arrived there (iirc she teleported there in the middle of them), they stopped for a moment, and Raven specifically address to Zatanna, before to take down at once the entire JL by putting them in a time stasis, while simultaneously mind controlling the TT to see a different outcome.
No one from JL (including Zatanna) knew what happened to them, they just find themselves later in another place, facing again the TT, but iirc they had no idea how they get there and what happened to them previously (they were "saved" by Trigon, and teleported there just to mess up Raven and Titans plan)
Wanda is definitely the most durable of the bunch.
Hmm, again, that's pretty much doubtful, beside the point already made by others above, that more likely they wont get to actual physical fight.
Still someone like Raven have superior feats, like going against Spectre, and getting direct punch strikes from him without to be KOed or even deterred
Just that it can be a head cut instead of an arm there and I doubt they can survive having their hearts or heads removed in an instant from their bodies.
And, regardless if physical or magical or psionic or mystical attack wise, Raven is by far the fastest on the draw, and also does have enough power to one shot or take down anyone here. Zatanna just seal the deal and make it full proof
@geekryan: Thanks. The durability argument is just an excuse for a lack of strategy for the marvel girls and it's not helping considering the fact that the DC girls are more stacked in that department.
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