So I was on discord with someone who couldn't debate at all and when he left he told me to come out of my comfort zone and debate on comicvine, so as a joke I'm doing it but I'll debate the topic seriously.
So the main evidence he gave was the overused arguments of Oblivion being the opposite of Eternity, Oblivion's avatar fighting equally against Infinity's avatar and LT being above the abstracts.
as many of you may know Oblivion existed before the Marvel Multiverse and transcends all dimensions making him an Outerversal level character
so I asked for him to prove LT was outerversal, he dodged and left
so I was wondering if anyone would like to debate the topic.
as many of you may know Oblivion existed before the Marvel Multiverse and transcends all dimensions making him an Outerversal level character
This is fundamentally wrong and makes me think you actually haven't read anything related to Oblivion whatsoever and just read respect threads and watch videos about him
I would like to see your supposed evidence and reason for said evidence, it would be interesting to see the reasoning for such an interesting viewpoint to say the least
ao, you Marvel noobs don't know jack about abstract entities. New isn't even a question and Oblivion stomps classic as well.
The official Marvel Handbook states that Oblivion quite literally embodies non-existence. This means it is infinitely superior to all the other abstracts, including The Living Tribunal. This is due to them explicitly being referred to as manifestations of the Marvel multiverse, which is a construct of space and time, whereas Oblivion is quite beyond such limitations, according to his original definition. (The only reason that Oblivion is “subject to the Living Tribunal’s authority” is because the Living Tribunal is the embodiment of multiversal law and order. It doesn’t mean that Oblivion is less powerful. Another thing to note is that Oblivion is stated to “precede the existence of this multiverse” whilst the Living Tribunal has only “existed since the multiverse came into being”. This means that Oblivion “existed” before the multiverse existed and the Living Tribunal has only existed since the start of the multiverse.) Oblivion is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space and is completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. It cannot be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.
“Before the multiverse was... I was. At the end of all things... I wait. I am the void... The breath between life and death... Between death and rebirth. Between heaven and hell. My true form is beyond that which you see. I transcend form -- and shape and substance. This body... This realm... And everyone and everything IN it... Are my Creations. Return now to non-being... Feel the consciousness draining from you. Fell all that you are stripped away... Consumed. You are beyond loneliness. Beyond pain. Beyond even the memory of what you once were. Oblivion is all that -- and more. For unlike you... I have consciousness of what I am. I feel every ripple in the sea of eternal emptiness... Every ebb in the tide of eternal nihility. Death has his joys... As do Love, Eternity and the countless other cosmic deities who play their parts in the Divine Drama... But Oblivion... Has nothing.”
Oblivion resides beyond the multiverse and all the abstract personifications that make up its totality. While entities such as Eternity, Infinity, Death and even The Living Tribunal are connected to creation and personify concepts essential for existence (Such as Time, Space, Death, or Order), Oblivion "exists" entirely beyond it, being outside and beyond form, shape, space, and time. According to his own words, creation is cyclical, always being birthed from the nothingness that he embodies, and eventually always returning to nothingness.
To conclude, classic Living Tribunal is an infinite-dimensional high hyperversal being and Oblivion is an outerversal being beyond dimensions. They aren't even on the same level... Thus, Oblivion stomps no difficulty.
@oisin_mullarkey: Interesting, what discord server are you in? Also, what is the reason as to why you believe Oblivion is in a league higher than that of the Living Tribunal? We have off-panels and on-panels evidence that suggest the notion of Oblivion > TLT is false.
the argument goes into the concepts of the characters, Oblivion is the embodiment of non-existence and he was there before creation, this would make him fundamentally dimensionless in nature as he embodies the infinite nothingness beyond the Marvel Multiverse this would make him an outerversal character, The Living Tribunal is still confined to dimensional constructs, The Living Tribunal is the abstract embodiment of Multiversal law & order, and the collective manifestation of all existence, Oblivion transcends reality while the Living Tribunal embodies it.
edit: someone already posted something way better than I could ever say
ao, you Marvel noobs don't know jack about abstract entities. New isn't even a question and Oblivion stomps classic as well.
The official Marvel Handbook states that Oblivion quite literally embodies non-existence. This means it is infinitely superior to all the other abstracts, including The Living Tribunal. This is due to them explicitly being referred to as manifestations of the Marvel multiverse, which is a construct of space and time, whereas Oblivion is quite beyond such limitations, according to his original definition. (The only reason that Oblivion is “subject to the Living Tribunal’s authority” is because the Living Tribunal is the embodiment of multiversal law and order. It doesn’t mean that Oblivion is less powerful. Another thing to note is that Oblivion is stated to “precede the existence of this multiverse” whilst the Living Tribunal has only “existed since the multiverse came into being”. This means that Oblivion “existed” before the multiverse existed and the Living Tribunal has only existed since the start of the multiverse.) Oblivion is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space and is completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. It cannot be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.
“Before the multiverse was... I was. At the end of all things... I wait. I am the void... The breath between life and death... Between death and rebirth. Between heaven and hell. My true form is beyond that which you see. I transcend form -- and shape and substance. This body... This realm... And everyone and everything IN it... Are my Creations. Return now to non-being... Feel the consciousness draining from you. Fell all that you are stripped away... Consumed. You are beyond loneliness. Beyond pain. Beyond even the memory of what you once were. Oblivion is all that -- and more. For unlike you... I have consciousness of what I am. I feel every ripple in the sea of eternal emptiness... Every ebb in the tide of eternal nihility. Death has his joys... As do Love, Eternity and the countless other cosmic deities who play their parts in the Divine Drama... But Oblivion... Has nothing.”
Oblivion resides beyond the multiverse and all the abstract personifications that make up its totality. While entities such as Eternity, Infinity, Death and even The Living Tribunal are connected to creation and personify concepts essential for existence (Such as Time, Space, Death, or Order), Oblivion "exists" entirely beyond it, being outside and beyond form, shape, space, and time. According to his own words, creation is cyclical, always being birthed from the nothingness that he embodies, and eventually always returning to nothingness.
To conclude, classic Living Tribunal is an infinite-dimensional high hyperversal being and Oblivion is an outerversal being beyond dimensions. They aren't even on the same level... Thus, Oblivion stomps no difficulty.
ao, you Marvel noobs don't know jack about abstract entities. New isn't even a question and Oblivion stomps classic as well.
The official Marvel Handbook states that Oblivion quite literally embodies non-existence. This means it is infinitely superior to all the other abstracts, including The Living Tribunal. This is due to them explicitly being referred to as manifestations of the Marvel multiverse, which is a construct of space and time, whereas Oblivion is quite beyond such limitations, according to his original definition. (The only reason that Oblivion is “subject to the Living Tribunal’s authority” is because the Living Tribunal is the embodiment of multiversal law and order. It doesn’t mean that Oblivion is less powerful. Another thing to note is that Oblivion is stated to “precede the existence of this multiverse” whilst the Living Tribunal has only “existed since the multiverse came into being”. This means that Oblivion “existed” before the multiverse existed and the Living Tribunal has only existed since the start of the multiverse.) Oblivion is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space and is completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. It cannot be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.
“Before the multiverse was... I was. At the end of all things... I wait. I am the void... The breath between life and death... Between death and rebirth. Between heaven and hell. My true form is beyond that which you see. I transcend form -- and shape and substance. This body... This realm... And everyone and everything IN it... Are my Creations. Return now to non-being... Feel the consciousness draining from you. Fell all that you are stripped away... Consumed. You are beyond loneliness. Beyond pain. Beyond even the memory of what you once were. Oblivion is all that -- and more. For unlike you... I have consciousness of what I am. I feel every ripple in the sea of eternal emptiness... Every ebb in the tide of eternal nihility. Death has his joys... As do Love, Eternity and the countless other cosmic deities who play their parts in the Divine Drama... But Oblivion... Has nothing.”
Oblivion resides beyond the multiverse and all the abstract personifications that make up its totality. While entities such as Eternity, Infinity, Death and even The Living Tribunal are connected to creation and personify concepts essential for existence (Such as Time, Space, Death, or Order), Oblivion "exists" entirely beyond it, being outside and beyond form, shape, space, and time. According to his own words, creation is cyclical, always being birthed from the nothingness that he embodies, and eventually always returning to nothingness.
To conclude, classic Living Tribunal is an infinite-dimensional high hyperversal being and Oblivion is an outerversal being beyond dimensions. They aren't even on the same level... Thus, Oblivion stomps no difficulty.
Living Tribunal: https://static.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/3/33916/1174517-all_new_official_handbook_of_the_marvel_universe_06_29
So somebody else from Seth's server jumps into the fray huh? Its like redditors really, they act as cohesive units of eusocial insects coming together to do something one alone is not capable of.
Anyways you posted no evidence for really anything here really beyond a basic databook scan that says nothing relating to Oblivion being an "outerversal being beyond dimensions" whatsoever, just an abstract being an opposite on the cosmic axis to Infinity.
Outervesal is a completely made up term that is not used at all in the Marvel Universe, it was coined by VsBattles which is notorious for being unreliable and your very sourcebook contradicts Oblivion even being Outerversal, as it clearly states Oblivion has Chronal Dimension and to be Outerversal you need to transcend all concepts of dimensions.
The Living Tribunal link doesn't even work.
Do you even know how to debate in a proper format?
someone made a post way better than I could ever make he goes over pretty much every reason why
but basically Oblivion is the embodiment of non-existence and existed before creation which makes fundamentally dimensionless in nature, so while Oblivion transcends dimensions. The Living Tribunal is still confined to dimensional constructs, The Living Tribunal is the abstract embodiment of Multiversal law & order, and the collective manifestation of all existence, Oblivion transcends reality while the Living Tribunal embodies it.
@thebestofthebest: I guess you tagged me because you want me to debunk OP's claim. Frankly I don't pay a lot of attention to Abstract level battles these days simply because I'm just rereading older Marvel stuff related to those things in order to have actual scans saved. But since you decided to tag me of all people, which I do appreciate, I guess I can get into it.
So I was on discord with someone who couldn't debate at all and when he left he told me to come out of my comfort zone and debate on comicvine, so as a joke I'm doing it but I'll debate the topic seriously.
Welcome to Comic Vine. Since you outright said you are up for a debate, I'll get into it.
So the main evidence he gave was the overused arguments of Oblivion being the opposite of Eternity, Oblivion's avatar fighting equally against Infinity's avatar and LT being above the abstracts.
That argument is overused simply because of the fact that it works. Based on statements and feats, Oblivion is on the same level as Eternity, and based on "logic" and scaling with Chaos King, he should be above him, which I guess I can agree with given the fact that Oblivion can't be destroyed, but Eternity can and has been multiple times. Living Tribunal is well above Abstracts based on statements, status, hierarchy, established evidence, feats, hell, even ABC logic.
To prove my point, Marvel strait up confirmed this in All New Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A-Z #6 (2006).
They actually say it out load. Living Tribunal has authority over all the Abstracts, including Oblivion. I mean, look at the Infinity Gauntlet arc and Warlock. Both Adam and Thanos proved that the Gems have power that dwarfs the Abstracts. Same gems who were completely useless against the Living Tribunal. Put it in any way you like but every time Marvel tried to establish Oblivion's powers, he was always compared to other Abstracts and at worst proved to be on their level and at best above them, although not as significantly as the Gems and definitely not as the Living Tribunal.
as many of you may know Oblivion existed before the Marvel Multiverse and transcends all dimensions making him an Outerversal level character
I honestly never heard of the term "Outerversal", but even if it's not made up, there is no such thing as Outerversal level. Being such a being has more to do with status rather than power, so it's more of a type than a level. And status does not necessarily translate to power. For example, Epoch is a Cosmic/Abstract entity. Obviously it's a status beyond everything sans Living Tribunal, Beyonders and TOAA. However, Epoch by herself, proved to be powerless against Heralds of Galactus like Stardust and Silver Surfer in New Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #544-546, even tho based on pure power, Heralds should be inferior to Skyfathers who by themselves are inferior to the Abstracts.
so I asked for him to prove LT was outerversal, he dodged and left
I don't think that term is well established in the Marvel Universe so I don't even want to focus on it. I'm pretty sure I read every single one of Marvel's official glossaries and I never came across the term "Outerversal". But lets say that that term somehow applies to Oblivion and not the Living Tribunal for the sake of giving you a benefit of doubt.
It doesn't have to. I mean, Living Tribunal by himself isn't as old as the Multiverse itself. He was created by TOAA by the time the Multiverse was created, so he's either as old or younger than Eternity. But that doesn't make them equivalent in power. Living Tribunal dwarfs Eternity in power. Even if Oblivion would be so called Outerversal being and Living Tribunal is not, it still wouldn't make him as powerful.
You can argue that Oblivion is much harder to destroy since he has never been destroyed while the Tribunal has been, and he represents total nothingness while the Tribunal still judges the creation, but that only makes Oblivion harder to kill than Tribunal simply because of his status and nature. Wolverine is harder to kill than Thor due to his Adamantium skeleton and healing factor, yet Thor is so much more powerful than Logan it isn't even funny.
@decaf_wizard: in fairness I never asked for help but, we use the term outerversal because its a way of scaling characters of a similar tier to other verses, the wiki is unreliable not going to deny it but the term and its definition are still applicable, do you know what a chronal dimension is because that wouldn't effect to outcome of him being Outerversal, TOAA and The Presence have there own dimensions but they're still dimensionless in nature, all these characters use these dimensions as a way of communication and in fact Oblivion's avatar is the one who uses the dimension as its stated if Oblivions true self ever entered any form of creation it would be destroyed. The reason he's outerversal is because he could "exist" when there was no existence meaning no dimensions, space, time or any concepts other than nothing existed.
So I was on discord with someone who couldn't debate at all and when he left he told me to come out of my comfort zone and debate on comicvine, so as a joke I'm doing it but I'll debate the topic seriously.
as many of you may know Oblivion existed before the Marvel Multiverse and transcends all dimensions making him an Outerversal level character
I honestly never heard of the term "Outerversal", but even if it's not made up, there is no such thing as Outerversal level. Being such a being has more to do with status rather than power, so it's more of a type than a level. And status does not necessarily translate to power. For example, Epoch is a Cosmic/Abstract entity. Obviously it's a status beyond everything sans Living Tribunal, Beyonders and TOAA. However, Epoch by herself, proved to be powerless against Heralds of Galactus like Stardust and Silver Surfer in New Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #544-546, even tho based on pure power, Heralds should be inferior to Skyfathers who by themselves are inferior to the Abstracts.
As I already touched on, Outerversal was a term coined by VSBattles and means a character that completely transcends all forms of dimensions. This is disproven by the handbook that the debater provided himself, which states that Oblivion does have Chronal Dimension despite no physical ones
An new account makes a claim that goes against general consensus to rustle jimmies... how original...
Oblivion > The One Above All Or Living Tribunal is an actual trend in seth's server. they believe Oblivion can defeat The One Above All and don't believe he's Omnipotent.
@krleavenger: Thanks for being respectful but there are some things I would like to bring up,
The first thing is the term outerversal is a term used in vs debates as a way of comparing characters from multiple different franchises, I'm just used to the term but its definition to its core is
Characters that have no dimensional limitations.
Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.
the dimensional structure being the Marvel Multiverse while the dimensionless space representing the void Oblivion embodies, the main point about this is Oblivion is by nature not bound by dimensions while The Living Tribunal is is the abstract embodiment of Multiversal law & order, and the collective manifestation of all existence, alongside all lesser Abstract Entities. At no point has TLT shown to be capable of transcending the concept of dimensionality altogether, and existing beyond a Hilbert-space space-time structure.
I find the Marvel guidebooks to extremely bad to powerscale off o
Aren't the powergrids ridiculed for their inconsistency and lowballing? (eg. subsonic Spiderman, class 100 lifting strength Iron man, etc.).
I know we only use it to powerscale, not measure their stats, but surely we shouldn't use something so unreliable to powerscale either?
Every time the statements revolving around Oblivion being in the same tier as the other abstracts always was referring to his avatars and never his true self
who claimed even the Chaos King was mere fraction of Oblivions infinite true self, It was also stated by Oblivion we have only seen avatars and illusions of his true self and that all of creation is meaningless to him
https://imgur.com/nmucVJF
I don't have anymore time today but ill answer anything you send tomorrow
@krleavenger: No problem. I've noticed that you're rather good when it comes to these sorta threads so I figured "why not tag you?". Anyways, just to add more information to your post. Infinity had also stalemated Oblivion in his own realm back during Quasar #25, which does not coincide with the OP's initial statement, at all.
Gallery
And like you've established earlier, the cosmic compass which compose of Eternity, Infinity and Death and Oblivion whom are nothing but ants compared to the Living Tribunal, power-wise, and Quasar #25 is an on-panel evidence that supports it. This alone debunks the absurd notion that Oblivion > TLT. On another completely irrelevant note to the topic at hand, I've just joined the Seth server.. there are some rather mentally-ill individuals who believes that Oblivion is more potent than the TOAA (I lol'ed so hard at this) which nearly caused me to lose the entirety of brain cells thus I left the server immediately.
@dession_viper: I'm not here to argue that but TOAA isn't omnipotent... didn't Thanos say he could show TOAA something he never saw before and didn't he not even know what human emotion felt like.
@dession_viper: I'm not here to argue that but TOAA isn't omnipotent... and didn't he not even know what human emotion felt like.
The One Above All here outright claims he's all knowing he know all.
didn't Thanos say he could show TOAA something he never saw before
Thanos just saying he can show One Above All something he's never seen before doesn't prove TOAA isn't all knowing or anything i don't know what gave you the idea.
and didn't he not even know what human emotion felt like.
Thanks for being respectful but there are some things I would like to bring up,
No problem and sure.
Basically, a being or an object which is outside and beyond all concepts of time and space. This is something completely formless, abstract, metaphysical and transcendental. The usual scale does not make sense against a beyond dimensional object. Such beings can not be affected by destruction within the dimensions of time and space, or physical matter and energy. This "space" in which there is no dimension can be the background for any dimensional space. Within such a beyond dimensional "space", a dimensional structure with any number of dimensions can be placed, because there are no restrictions regarding dimensions.
I understand that. But it's not like Oblivion is completely beyond everything. The fact that there is creation already makes him limited. Eternity just by existing is actually in better position than Oblivion given the fact that his entire presence defies the logic Oblivion is based on. So even if we rely on Cosmic logic, Eternity could actually be superior to Oblivion. And we know he is not given the fact that Marvel already established him as his equal at best and potentially slightly weaker.
That's why we don't rely on common sense and "logic" when we argue on Comic Vine or in general, but facts presented to us, in which case, feats and showings. Logical explanations and common sense are more useful when debating with things that are not 100% clear or are extremely vague. In this argument they are not. It's pretty strait forward. Marvel established Tribunal's superiority over Oblivion.
the dimensional structure being the Marvel Multiverse while the dimensionless space representing the void Oblivion embodies, the main point about this is Oblivion is by nature not bound by dimensions while The Living Tribunal is is the abstract embodiment of Multiversal law & order, and the collective manifestation of all existence, alongside all lesser Abstract Entities. At no point has TLT shown to be capable of transcending the concept of dimensionality altogether, and existing beyond a Hilbert-space space-time structure.
That same Living Tribunal is also well above the concept of Multiversal order he embodies given the fact that he is capable of judging Eternity, who literally is the Multiverse itself. Tribunal also proved to have the power superior to that of the Infinity Gems, which have enough power to make not only Eternity (Multiverse), but all other Cosmic Beings look like ants in comparison. Even if Tribunal's overall role is to judge the Multiverse, it's not like he doesn't have the power over it. And Oblivion himself as a being doesn't mean anything as long as there is existence, so it's not everything that happens is completely irrelevant to Oblivion either.
I find the Marvel guidebooks to extremely bad to powerscale off o
This is not power scaling. It's not like I posted DBZ Guidebook. This is Marvel explaining to us what the Living Tribunal is. Hell, in his Handbook entry, him being superior to entities is the first thing being mentioned after his creation and how he works as a being.
Aren't the powergrids ridiculed for their inconsistency and lowballing? (eg. subsonic Spiderman, class 100 lifting strength Iron man, etc.).
Never posted power grids.
I know we only use it to powerscale, not measure their stats, but surely we shouldn't use something so unreliable to powerscale either?
Again, I didn't use it to scale power and stats. I literally posted Marvel's explanation on what Living Tribunal is as a being and how he affects the Marvel Multiverse. After his creation and function, the first thing Marvel mentioned is how he's stronger than Abstracts.
Every time the statements revolving around Oblivion being in the same tier as the other abstracts always was referring to his avatars and never his true self
Proof???
who claimed even the Chaos King was mere fraction of Oblivions infinite true self, It was also stated by Oblivion we have only seen avatars and illusions of his true self and that all of creation is meaningless to him
The link you gave me showed me a panel from Mighty Thor Annual where Galactus fought Other and Scrier. It doesn't say anything about Avatars but the fact that Oblivion's overall appearance is an illusion. Which doesn't mean a lot given the fact that the nature of his being should defy a concept such as appearance or form, so he takes the form we mortals can understand or at least comprehend.
No problem. I've noticed that you're rather good when it comes to these sorta threads so I figured "why not tag you?".
Hehe, thanks.
Anyways, just to add more information to your post. Oblivion had also stalemated Infinity in his own realm back during Quasar #25, which disagree with the OP's initial position.
Yes, that fight is one of the instance I was talking about when I said that Oblivion's power was compared to that of other Abstracts.
On another completely irrelevant note to the topic at hand, I've just joined the Seth server.. there are some rather mentally-ill individuals who believes that Oblivion is more potent than the TOAA (I lol'ed so hard at this) which nearly caused me to lose nearly all of my brain cells thus I left the server immediately.
@dession_viper: yes it does prove it, being omnipotent means you know everything that has happened his happening and will ever happen including anything you will see in the future,
I believe in strange tales when takes over Ted Sallis
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