Nah, so far Tynion has expressed love for each one of the characters across all types of social media but he hasn't done them any justice apart from fan wanking each villain and Steph. I don't want him to boost even further JPV's abilities in order to show how superior he is compared to Bruce so at the end Bruce wouldn't be able to handle it by himself. I am tired of this gimmick and so far this arc is going down the same road.

@black_arrow said:

@tdk_1997 said:

I am super excited for the return of BatAzrael but I know that it is probably just a cheap gimmick by Tynion and everything will go to hell.

At least he has an awesome design:

I love the design! To be fair though, I have always been a fan of the variations of the costumes of JPV as Batman.

However, I must agree that this is a big improvement actually and looks better than everything before.

By mistake I read retarded and I was going to say that I couldn't even agree any more than this with you. You might want to correct that. lol

@entropy_aegis: Even for people, like myself, who don't know much about Azrael this arc is confusing because it is not saying much about him. The Zatanna stuff is cool, but I'm still left with why is Bruce going towards magic. He has sssooo many other resources. If hes actualy desperate for some reason (why we don't know because apparently Cass could destroy entire armies single handed) he has Hellbat, his own other tech, Justice buster and a frewaking moon base. Why is he helpless here, or better yet throughout the entirety of Tynions run (It's one of the books largest constant themes - Batman needs saving)?

But back to Azrael, why is he the supposed focus if he was only in a couple panels? With the new army of robots, it better not be Azrael beats everyone while the rest of the team is helpless, because honestly, that's been EVERY SINGLE ARC!! everyone is a chosen superstar apparently. I want an in depth character examination of Azrael, so a reader such as myself could understand why he is so damn cool.

Honestly, I while I prefer Batman, I can see why some people like this book. Personally I will be dropping it after Azrael, not because I don't think there's anything good about it, but because I don't think it's for me. Next arc is Tim, and I really have no intention of reading Tynion's "I have the answer to everything and can do anything" version of Tim. I find both books, Bat and Tec, keep their detractors due to Batman being in the book, and on top of that, Batman proper has huge moments like Button and the Proposol, and Tec has an extra built in draw that is every single lovable forgotten 90s character that was mistreated in the n52. So both books have hate readers. But the only way DC will understand if people don't like something is if the sales go down.

Its because Tynion is a lazy slob who cant really come up with something different.

The difference between them, is that one of these books it's poorly written...the other it's actually good, but since Batman isn't getting as much spotlight there as he has on the Batman title, batman-fans are mad at Tynion...which it's both funny and unfair, since so far Batman is like the second most important character in every arc so far...while everyone else is only the most important one once, and on their own character-centric-arcs...plus, this is a team book, Batman isn't and was never supposed to be the all and be all of this book, regardless of the writter...even if we had the biggest Batman fanboy in the world writting this book he would still have to acknowledge the other members of the team and do them justice, and THAT its not easy at all, and specially with a team like this...but like i've said many times on this and on other related threads: wait for the characer-centric-arcs to end, when we start getting arcs focused on all members equally, and then judge.

Actually, without the plot-device super-suits than Batman now has on the bat-cave, almost every member of the team is more capable than Batman himself, Cass / Azrael / Clayface, are more capable in combat, Tim / Luke are about as capable if not more so in tech and overall smarts, and Batwoman is being build up to be a literal female counter-part of Batman, so, even if we had a writter that wasn't a fan of any of this characters and was put on the book, but knew the characters powers abillities and overall skill-sets, Batman would likely be written as being less capable than he currently is on Detective Comics, because let's face it, Tynion is also a big fan of Batman himself.

The Zatanna stuff is being a problem, because Tynion thought of including her on this arc, and also he clearly loves Zee, and so do i and almost every bat-fan, but this is JPV's own arc and he should receive more focus than anyone-else, and so far it seems that both JPV and Zee are receiving about equal focus so far, which normally wouldn't be a bad thing, but this arc should be all about JPV.

@bat_girl_cc: In pure h2h, yeah, Bruce is weaker than someone like Cass or Azrael, but with his standard gear, has anyone of those people ever beaten him? Tynion's version of Bruce standard gear is normal batarangs and maybe a smoke bomb. Clayface he's actually beaten with standard gear, and Cass he's managed to stalemate, therefore, whichever your favorite, you can't say for sure Bruce is weaker combat wise. Unless you mean just h2h, then of course he is. That's the point of his character, surpassing others with his mind. BUT he doesn't need a mech suit to stand up to those people, because he hasn't in the past. Even Tynion backtracks on his Bruce comments and his version of the character is the only one that might need to actually get in a suit. Again, only Tynion writes Tim and Luke that way, no other writer, and Tynion blatantly compares Batman to these characters because he doesn't know how else to say said character is cool. The theme of Batwoman is even what can she do that Batman can't. Now, I don't think detective is terrible in the slightest, it isn't for me, but to say the complaints about the portrayal of Batman are unfair is a bit of a stretch, because there's SUCH a difference between his competence in that book and every other book he's in. King's and Snyder's Batman would be equal to or superior to each member of this team. It's all writer's interpretation.

And to your point about another writer's handling of Bruce, I don't believe they would, because they would look at his history of confrontation with these characters and Shiva and write him accordingly. For example, Shiva might be able to beat him in pure h2h, but not in a single move. Then the writer wouldn't backtrack on that defeat and have shiva wish for the chance to fight bruce for real because they wouldn't have written so extreme in the first place.

@jameswayne: I think he just doesn't understand the characters. That, and the team is just overcrowded for him to handle. Moreover, this guy was bad during New52 as well, so no surprise his 'Tec is not well-received.

Yes, they fought to a standstill once on Batgirl #50 - Tough Love standstill because in the end they were both still capable of keep on fighting, and Cass dominated the entire time Bruce was using Gear + Gadgets + Dirty Tactics and trying to keep his distance from her during most of the fight, Cass has out-fighted and forced a morals-off kind of state Batman to flee from her on Batman: Gotham Knights #5 - Locked; Hide and Seek , she literally speed-blitzed him during a training session that i don't recall the issue number right now, among other instances. Both Azrael has beaten Batman badly once, and if memory serves JPV was once even holding his own against Batman, Nightwing and Robin (Tim Drake) all at once in the bat-cave he even ripped the bat-computer off the wall and threw it at them LOL the guy is a monster. Clayface can be beaten with prep Steph did it for instances, but in a random encounter it would be really hard for Bruce.

People now complain about Tynion, but you know he will eventually leave the title (i hope he stays until issue 1000 at least, and he deserves it) but once he leaves, someone else will take his place, and i bet 1000 dollars, that Batman will still look weak in comparisson to the others, if not more so than he does now, lets wait and see...remember, Tynion is also a big fan of Batman.

@bat_girl_cc: I remember the Cass and Batman, it wasn't nearly as one sided as you said. At one point Bruce got the upper hand and nightwing had to intervene for cass. Azraels has beaten Bruce but Bruce has beaten azraels. I'm not disrespecting any of these characters I'm just saying Bruce can hold his own. To say otherwise is ignoring the skills of the character. You could fairly argue he would lose, and I could fairly argue he would win. But either way it is close. As i said I wouldn't care if he lost as long as his skills are respected. And of course I'm including standard gear.

King has had Bruce beat atlanteans and Amazon's with just his fists, best bame in a fist fight and tag zoom with no prep. Now that's ridiculous but shows he wouldn't job him like tynion does. Snyder has had standard Bruce run a train on his entire rogues gallery including clayface.

LMAO

I just saw someone on Tumblr (never ever go on that site, it's not worth the loss of brain cells), actually say that Bruce can't take Kate in a fight.

Oh and in other news, a gorgeous Batman comic is coming out. Called the Dark Prince Charming and it looks fantastic.

@belrev516: lol, seriously. Im glad I never visit that site. xD

As for the new comic, apparently it's in French, but luckily it will be translated into English.

It wasn't one-sided, but Cass dominated, that's my point, and the fight didn't reached a proper conclusion, they both hugged under water in the end, after Bruce blew up a entire bridge with both on it.

If memory serves Bruce has beaten Azrael Michael Lane (once or twice), not Jean Paul Valley.

That same writter (Tom King) made a combat-list of the bat-family, and ranked Batman (Bruce) (at number 3) below Cass (number 1) and Dick Grayson (number 2)...James Tynion reacted to that tweet, and tweeted one of his own, saying that Bruce should be ranked at number 2 just below Cass...see? just because James Tynion loves the characters that he's writting on Detective Comics (including Batman) doesn't mean that he's being biased, its just that he knows what they are capable of...if Batman fights Nightwing in a book written by Tom King, you know that Batman will lose...that won't happen in a book written by James Tynion.

Scott Snyder had Batman suffering ALOT on his stories, actually i don't see Tynion's Batman as being inferior to Snyder's Batman at all, its just that so far Tynion's stories haven't been focused on Batman primarily, whereas with Snyder they were, which is obvious since he was writting the Batman title, and you know Batman would win in the end.

People forget that Tynion had Batman dominating The Orphan (David Cain) 1 on 1 fair and square, on Batman and Robin Eternal...he also had Batman losing only to 50!! Colony Agents at the same time, on Detective Comics...he had Batman dominating Ubu, as well...etc. and remember, Detective Comics its a book focusing on a team, not on Batman alone, and that team is quite op even individually...people now complain about Tynion...i'll be here, on this thread once Tynion leaves, and another writter takes on this book with this same team, and then we'll see how good Batman looks.

Lol.

Bruce > Kate.

Even though Batwoman has been "amped" on the current continuity to be more like a equal to Batman, she's still not there yet, at least feats-wise she's not.

@bat_girl_cc: I agree about the fight not being one sided, but not about Cass dominating, (cause how could it not be one sided and Cass still dominate) there were instances where Bruce had the upper hand, for example, when Nightwing intervened. And I agree with the Ranking that King made and Tynion also agreed with except the 2 and 3 spots. I never said Cass wasn't the best h2h fighter, she clearly is, which is what the ranking is about. The ranking was pure h2h skill, which doesn't apply here. I said with tactics and gadgets Bruce closes that gap. Again, I'm not saying he'd win, what I'm saying is there woulnh't be a clear winner or loser, but Tynion writes Bruce with just batarangs. King also said Nightwing was superior to Bruce but had Bane beat Nighwing and the robins to a pulp due to tactics (apparently), which is where he said Batman excels at.

Snyder did make Bruce suffer a lot, which is what I loved, but he showed him competent, Bruce suffered then kicked ass, he wasn't a plot device to compare others too. I think Tynion is aware of what he does too, because like I said before, he tries to backtrack with his comments. Why would shiva wish to fight bruce for real? Why is Tim's tech only maybe more advanced when in the first arc it was shown to be more advanced? Because Tynion uses bruce as a prop and then tries to subtly retract what he says or does.

Well from reading this form I guess I was right to avoid the bat rebirth titles. Ill continue to do so.

@lxlgiftedlxl: Agreed. Overall Bruce is superior to literally everyone in the family, jack of all trades and whatever.

@lxlgiftedlxl: Ya read Batman, tec or all star? None of them?

BATMAN #33

Written by TOM KING

Art and cover by JOELLE JONES

Variant cover by OLIVIER COIPEL

“A DREAM OF ME” part 1! Following his marriage proposal to Catwoman, Batman leaves Gotham City on a quest of renewal and redemption. As he travels and fights, he encounters members of his family—each disturbed by Batman’s journey, each ready to stand in his way, each ready to push back against Batman’s stubborn determination to evolve into something better than a superhero.

On sale OCTOBER 18 • 32 pg, FC, $2.99 US • RATED T

So this is the new arc after War in Batman. How much you wanna bet that Selina says no because Bruce being happy for once is forbidden by DC? And why would the family fight Bruce if he's trying to better himself and evolve?

King is being a #stupidhead right now.

@eto: I have read all of them at one point but was dissappointed so I dropped all of them and haven't read. Everytime I hear news about the batbooks it's usually something I dislike so I avoid them.

@bat_girl_cc: I don't see how every member of the bat family is more capable than Bruce over all. in certain aspects sure but over all I think not.Edit:The rest of the family lack in specific areas where as Bruce is very well rounded in and that's what makes him overall more capable than the rest of the family.

I don't believe that a writer who wasnt a fan of any of these characters would write Bruce less capable than he already is as Bruce is still a very capable fighter (especially when you throw his standard gear into the mix)and intellectual mind.

@lxlgiftedlxl: Agreed.

Which rebirth title DO you enjoy? Lol

Personality, I enjoy the Superman books.

@eto: Superman books as well man. Like when I read Superman I genuinely smile and am happy to read. I also enjoy Wonder Woman. Rucka has put in some serious work on the title and it's been great so far (there were a few moments where it felt slow tho).

@lxlgiftedlxl: I'm glad you're enjoying it as well. as for ww, never read a single ww book. I know nothing about her, lel.

@eto: Yeah Superman is so good. I'm so glad his books are good because the terrible quality I have been getting from Batman books almost made me drop out of rebirth.

Really, nor a single WW comic? Then man I recommend that you read Wonder Woman Rebirth. It does an excellent job at catching you up on her origins (pre 52/new 52), introduces you to Diana's characters and supporting Cast beautifully and does a good job at utilizing her enemies and elements of green mythology. I highly reccomend it if you aren't familiar with Wonder Woman.

@lxlgiftedlxl: Hmm cool.

need to cacth up.

I already read many books

need more of this$$$ lol xd

@eto: Lol I know that feeling.

https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/07/17/fdc-comics-solicitations-october-2017-olivier-coipel-bengal-scott-snyder-batman-lost/

Batman Metal continues....War of Jokes and Riddles comes to a conclusion and many more Bat titles!

@laughingbatman@entropy_aegis@bat_girl_cc@jayc1324@tdk_1997

Frankly only the French creator's work and Shadow/Batman excites me, the rest is just typical Snyder, Tynion and King. Not sold on White Knight either. King's solicit in particular makes it sound an awful lot as if Selina just rejected his proposal and dumped him.

“Bizarro Reborn” part two! As Batwoman and her team close in on the infamous Outlaws, Red Hood and Artemis must figure out what to do about Bizarro, whose new war on crime has taken a dark turn—is this the end of the Outlaws as we know them?

Gotta love this though, at this rate it wont be long before Gotham belongs to Steph, the manor goes to Tim, the company to Luke, the mantle to JPV.

Oh, Batman....you and your secrets. So what was the conversation Selina and him had between going to bed and the proposal?

I think they're just spinning their wheels until Geoff John's event. I think if King was a good writer he would have told us the answer in issue 24 instead of relying on gimmicks. He's got nothing.

Would that be such a bad thing? And I agree about Gotham having too many heroes

@eto: haven't read any metal stuff, not even sure if it takes place in the main universe

@jayc1324: Yes, it would be a bad thing. Because DC doesn't have the balls to actually make Batman happy for once and shoot our expectations down(Which is Selina saying no)

Shadow/Batman details

Here

I just love how the moment Snyder's name is dropped from the credits Damian Wayne immediately shows up.

I don't think it'll be that predictable. At worse, it'd be a rehash of the current arc of Green Arrow where he recently left Star City to do some soul searching and reconnect with other heroes, with Black Canary having dumped him.

I think Selina will agree to the marriage and Bruce will depart anyway to become a man worthy of honoring Selina's answer. It'll be one of those ''I will wait for you'' stories.

If anyone thinks, either way, this will be the end of King's take on Bruce and Selina's relationship, they're kidding themselves. I think the marriage will end up happening regardless of the bumps in the road, or at least an attempt at a wedding will.

@zariusii: if it happens, how long do you think the marriage will last?

@entropy_aegis: what is this with Snyder and his hate towards Damian.

Seriously, what's his deal with Damian, like wtf. I get that he's trying to push Duke but it's no use because people love Damian more. Besides he's his son after all.

To be honest, a lot of Batman fans confuse me. They complain about Snyder never using Damian but the majority of Batman fans hate Damian and regard him as the worst Robin. What?

I think the majority still do hate Damian. I was happy Snyder didn't use him.

@scott_summers52: I dont think the majority hates him for one.

Secondly he is Robin and Batman's son.

Third they're protesting against Snyder's pet characters indirectly.

I personally dont care if Snyder uses Damian or not. What bothers me is his influence. Its pretty darned telling that Orlando started using Damian immediately after Snyder stopped having anything to do with this crossover storyline.

@entropy_aegis: I agree about his overusage of "pet" characters like Duke over established characters like Damian. My point was that I don't like Damian, and he's getting enough exposure in Teen Titans and Super Sons that writers like Snyder don't need to use him in the main Batman title. Many Batman fans would agree with me on disliking Damian but use him as an example to protest Snyder's pet characters, making themselves sound contradictory.

TT and Super Sons are not his "home" books, Damian IS a Batman character, he is Robin. Its like saying Batman is getting enough exposure in Trinity and JL so there's no need for a solo Batman book. This wouldn't be a problem if the writers were just interested in Batman solo but with Tynion's Bat squad, Snyder's Duke shilling and King's still continuing search for actual supporting characters eye brows will be raised.

Its not contradictory at all, they accept Damian as Robin despite disliking him, they dont accept Duke as anything and the rest is pretty self explanatory after that.

I'm happy too, if Snyder doesn't want to use Damian then that's fine by me but his excuses are just stupid and he comes off as a hypocrite when he pushes Duke and Harper.

But more importantly like I explained before its his influence that is most bothersome to me, lack of Damian is a symptom in any book that is trying to ape Snyder or which Snyder indirectly influences. DC has been trying to cultivate mini Snyders (Tynion, Bennet) or putting other writers under him (Orlando, Higgins etc).

Fawkes and Seeley were part of the Eternal books with barely any Damian (shitty books btw) and Seeley actually called Damian a tertiary character there. Yet Fawkes had no problem writing Damian's solo and Seeley has no problem using him as a recurring character in Nightwing.

Similarly, Orlando incorporates Damian in to his book the moment Snyder is out.

King had no issues with Damian during Grayson and Robin War but the moment he takes the Batman job his treatment of Damian resembles Snyder's.

Writers outside Snyder's realm of influence like Tomasi, Jurgens and Priest dont have any issues. This is what I hate, not lack of Damian but clear manipulation and if these writers are being forced not to use Damian then who the hell knows what else they're being forced to do or restricted from doing. Higgins for instance wrote a pretty good Batman Beyond comic and he's not a bad writer by any means but boy his Nightwing run is a 30 issue wasteland of comics and its because of Snyder that fool Tynion has been forced on us.

@entropy_aegis: I am actually not a fan of Duke or Harper either. I don't dislike them but they are just so, so unnecessary and don't really fit in anywhere. They always seemed forced in, and I don't like Batman just picking up random kids off the street. He did that with Jason I know, but that trend doesn't need to be repeated, and writers are too lazy to actually develop them or give them anything important to do. There is no story that can be told with them that is any new or different from any of the other Robins or Bat-family members, and I didn't like Batwoman being so involved in Detective Comics either, when she has her own book already. There are too many bat heroes in Gotham as it is.

And I think it kind of makes sense Snyder would have influence, since he wrote over 50 issues of the most popular Batman series in the New 52. DC must trust him with the character. I don't like all of Snyder's work but it makes sense from DC's perspective.

It made sense initially but after Grayson and Burnside Batgirl and onwards its became clear that they were trying to move away in such a radical manner clearly because Snyder approach wasn't working and nothing about Tynion makes sense. He's written far too many Batfam books to even be considered an up and coming hit creator.

So why have they doubled back on Snyder with Rebirth? literally when the rest of the company is abandoning the New-52 its the Bat books trying to cling on to it. Little surprise Didio and Snyder are the faces of Dark Matter/Metal aka the last remaining piece of the New 52.

Snyder just represents the old order now, time to move on.

I would have to disagree with that. I believe, at this point, Damian is developing like many of the past Robins. Alike Dick Grayson, he's moving out of Batman's shadow and leading the Teen Titans. The core Batman title is no longer his "home book," Damian is his own character with or without his father. People don't complain about Nightwing not appearing in Batman's title and they shouldn't with Damian either.

I don't like Damian as a character, but I do respect the Robin legacy he's following.

@scott_summers52: And that would be fine theoretically if Tim Drake and Dick Grayson hadn't returned to the Batworld which they did. So in the long run things circle back to where they were. TT is not a feasible long term home. You saw what happened to Tim when was stuck there in the New 52. You know full well that Nightwing has gotten all his solo books under the Bat brand. TT has failed to push any character excluding Deathstroke. I dont see any Aqualad,Donna Troy,Arsenal,Raven books.

Point is that the excuses used by Snyder and his gang dont hold up. If they want to write solo Batman then effing write solo Batman. But they dont,Snyder has been trying to establish his own pets,Tynion is working predominantly with the 90's crew whom he uses to job Batman at every opportunity,King's Batman has taken a backseat to the likes of everyone from Catwoman to Kite-Man, he's been an afterthought in his own book. Forget Damian, the level of apathy I see from the writers of Batman and Tec for Batman himself is shocking while Snyder has vested interests.

In short under the current regime I dont see Damian simply as a character, I see him as a symbol. His use(or lack of) to me informs exactly what direction writers are following and school of thought the writers in question fall under when it comes to Batman.

Books where Damian is used largely give us classic Batman

Books where his existence is ignored fall under Snyder's umbrella aka retcons,revisions,agenda pushing,retellings of ideas that have already been used. I like Damian but I was a bigger fan of him before his death than after but paradoxically I have defended him more in the last 2 years than I did before his death and I actually wouldn't have minded if he had stayed dead either. So Damian is an indicator to me, a signal of sorts of what to expect from Batman books in the last 2 years or so.

Good question. If the future of Batman Beyond is canon, Bruce is still alone, so maybe a few years...maybe they'll bring Selina into that book to reveal when [is she alive in the BB future? I don't follow the book]