@kasya_carey: I think moon level is a highball he is only city level. Those were building sized moons/planets he destroyed, he doesn't even live in the center of a Nebula which is Billion Light years long, he lives in only a 10km Gas area which makes Whis 10km/sec ahhah I proved it yes.

@thedeathstar: that planet most definitely wasn't building level. Did you calculate the size of the moon? Because that doesn't look building level at all.

@deactivated-5a519b7583dfb: Well we know base vegeta and base goku are stronger than ssj3 gotenks who is stronger than kid buu that wiped out galaxies in Z. Since then both have trained with the strongest entity in their universe and have only increased their power multifolds since then.

He isn't.

I wouldn’t say Base Goku is Universal. If Dragon Ball didn’t make scaling the best option, I wouldn’t take it, but I would say Goku’s Base is probably somewhere in the league of Large Planet buster? A defeated Final form Frieza essentially pressed his palms against the Earth and that was enough to blow it up, and Goku was surpassing a non-defeated Final form Frieza. He was also surprised to hear Beerus could possibly destroy a star by accident.

@kasya_carey: Correct Goku is multi planet. And no a fake black hole doesn't put him at star or solar system level either.

@masterskywalker: that wasn’t a fake ball of gravity. First form Frieza not even using full power oneshotted Planet Vegeta, which was a large planet. 2nd form is definitely multi planet. 3rd and final form is more multi planet to small star level. If this calc is valid, then Frieza strongest peak at the namek saga should be star to large star level. http://www.t5forums.com/forum/the-vs-sections/general-discussion/calcs/174024-dragon-ball-super-calc-frieza-destroys-planet-vegeta

@kasya_carey: It lacked properties of a real black hole from size and its origin. Hardly anything comparable to a real one.

Do you have any evidence for PV being a larger planet or for Friezas forms in Z being at this level? Or being star level? Linking my garbage and shoddy calcs from other websites isn't convincing either.

I already posted a clear calculation of Goku's black hole feat and it does have very similar properties to Blackhole which we don't even know in real life lol. Ignoring it won't help you much here.

First Form Frieza destroyed a Planet which generated 10 times than Gravity than Earth. Do you know Jupiter generates only 2.5x Gravity compared to Earth and has like 1300 times the Earth Volume? Planet Vegeta is like 4 times more Harder to destroy compared to Jupiter and this was just Base Frieza who is thousands of times weaker than his Final form.

Base Goku (Super)>>SSJ3 Tier Z>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Base Frieza (Big Planet+ level)

@thedeathstar:

I already posted a clear calculation of Goku's black hole feat and it does have very similar properties to Blackhole which we don't even know in real life lol. Ignoring it won't help you much here.

I remember those "calculations". Let's just say we'd all do better by forgetting the effort put into it. And weve been able to study the properties of black holes and how they operate in space. You don't work with any space program or other science division studying the theories so I'd take your views on it with a grainy of salt.

First Form Frieza destroyed a Planet which generated 10 times than Gravity than Earth. Do you know Jupiter generates only 2.5x Gravity compared to Earth and has like 1300 times the Earth Volume? Planet Vegeta is like 4 times more Harder to destroy compared to Jupiter and this was just Base Frieza who is thousands of times weaker than his Final form

You know this reminds me of another planet that has 10x Earth gravity but is nowhere near the size. Oh, King Kais planet of course. You have no evidence to sugggest PV was that much bigger than Earth and that Frieza operates at that level.

Base Goku (Super)>>SSJ3 Tier Z>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Base Frieza (Big Planet+ level)

Yes we know how scaling in DBZ works. Now if only consistent feats could back them up ?.

@masterskywalker: DBZ scaling is consistent and so are it's feats and statements. They go from Moon level to Planet level to Big Planet Level to Multi-Planet to Star/Solar System. I never even mentioned Super scaling here because I just compared Super Base Goku to his Z counterpart and Z Base Frieza.

Also lmao do you even know whats a density or how it works? Just because an Object is bigger doesn't means it will have more weight or would generate more gravity. A tiny black hole generates much more gravity and is much heavier than Earth because it's denser while having a smaller size.

Tell me what would weight more? 1 Bucket of Metal or 1 Bucket of Feathers.

No, not base Goku. SSG Goku is arguably. Anything lower no.

@thedeathstar:

DBZ scaling is consistent and so are it's feats and statements

Super has been disproving this quite often however and it was prevalent even in the Original Z. And the feats don't coincide with the scaling, at least in the ways people insinuate. There's no evidence of Goku being able to destroy a star regardless of how poorly and how asinine people scale them up after the next hair change.

They go from Moon level to Planet level to Big Planet Level to Multi-Planet to Star/Solar System. I never even mentioned Super scaling here because I just compared Super Base Goku to his Z counterpart and Z Base Frieza.

Yes, but nobody in the verse has actually busted a star or solar system despite all the bravado of the fans putting them at that level. There's only

A. Statements (which arent on panel feats)

B. Outliers or high end feats that are never replicated again.

C. Scaling.

And like I said, scaling works in their verse fine and dandy, but outside of it in general and serious discussion? No. And the other two are self explanatory.

Also lmao do you even know whats a density or how it works? Just because an Object is bigger doesn't means it will have more weight or would generate more gravity. A tiny black hole generates much more gravity and is much heavier than Earth because it's denser while having smaller mass.

>a tiny black hole generates more gravity and is much heavier than Earth.

Yet here you on to say.

and it does have very similar properties to Blackhole which we don't even know in real life lol

Once again, your "arguments" are contradicting themselves. Also id like evidence of KK's planet being denser than Earth and PV being denser and larger on top of it.

You're the same guy who believed Beerus to be mountain level. I don't think you hold enough credibility to actually debate Dragon Ball. You don't even know how Density works or what it is.

I never said such a thing. If you're gonna refer to a past statement I made then at least properly reference it in its entirety.

And please don't be ironic. Make compelling arguments and people might take what you have to say seriously.

When did Super become consistent?

And No.

@masterskywalker: None of my arguments are contradicting. A tiny black hole indeed generates much heavier gravity compared to Earth. Earth's mass would fit into 9mm radii Black Hole.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAHAHHA

You heard him @thedeathstar, if someone can give you advice on how to be taken seriously is this guy!

Indeed Ruke.

@thedeathstar: Earlier you said we wouldn't know the properties of black holes (untrue) now you're contradicting yourself trying to say the fake one from DBS had the properties of a real one. You can only regurgitate this so much before it gets less humorous and stale.

@rukelnikovftw: Who are you and what do you have to offer to this convo? If it's nothing then you can Lee on moving.

Why Bump this?

When Toshio state Not even SSB Goku can destroy the universe.

@galactic_1000: Sorry I was just responding to the usual statements here.

@masterskywalker: No need to say sorry :)

About Black hole it's indeed debateble.

@masterskywalker: Except it was a fictional black hole stated and you denying it won't change what it is.

I can deny it because I've yet to see any compelling arguments that it was anything resembling properties of real ones despite people calling it a "legit black hole" or even various ones in fiction that had properties of ones we've studied. And among other things you still haven't proved a multitude of other points that you have no evidence to refute.

Stick to the gifs they're more your speed.

It's hard to say. Let's look at this from what we know:

The first God Red form, or Super Saiyan God, had such a high power that his conflict with Beerus caused a shockwave that was threatening the universe within 3 blows. However, the observable universe as we can see it, assuming this is the same size as the DB Universe of course, is incredibly large, measuring in 4.40×10²⁶ meters.

Considering that SS2 was solar system level (17,960,279,040,000 meters long) and SS3 at best qualifies as multi-solar system level, this means the increase to God form has to be around 8,166,168,595,711x stronger just to be possible. Now, while I've done my own personal calculations on God form and have found it to be an astronomical increase, it doesn't come close to this.

It's far more logical to think that this was caused by a spatial deformity, rift, or dimensional rip if you will caused by their enormous power. We've seen evidence of this in the Buu saga, where Buu tore through the dimensional wall with his voice alone. This is directly tied to power, since a weaker Gotenks and Piccolo could not achieve this feat, but SS3 Gotenks could. So, theoretically, this same shockwave that almost destroyed the universe is also the same effect, just on a larger scale.

So then the power of God form is converted into Goku's own strength, making it his new base level of power. However, in the transition he did notice his power level dropped though he had remained as a Super Saiyan. This means that his new base form, having absorbed a portion of God form's strength, which is then multiplied by 50 for the Super Saiyan transformation, must be weaker. This means the new base form, (Saiyan Beyond God, God Essence Goku, etc.) is a fiftieth of God form's original power.

Given that it took the enormous power of God form clashing with Beerus and 3 powerful blows to threaten the universe, functionally it's POSSIBLE that the new base form could attain it, but it would be very difficult no doubt. As such, none of the Z fighters have mastered using this dimensional ripping ability to any sort of advantage.

However, Goku does get stronger through DB Super by a measurable amount. Ignoring SS Blue or Kaio Ken, Goku managed to get 10 times stronger from the Universal Tournament arc to the Tournament of Power arc. This is proven when his second bout with Hit ended in a tie despite the fact that he did not use Kaio Ken. This means that he was powerful enough to reach the same level as Hit without using his maximum power. This means he got at least 10 times stronger as a result of the Goku Black arc.

So, now the new base form Goku is bare minimum a fifth of the God form power we saw originally in the Battle of Gods arc. This is a significant factor, as it means it might only take 15 blows (give or take) for this form to threaten the universe. However, since we do not know whether or not this kind of dimensional shock wave can be conjured at that level of power, it is merely conjecture.

My personal belief is no, as while he is nearing the power of the original God form in his base form alone, he is not quite there yet. Since we can't assume any level of power beneath the clash with Beerus could do it, this is the lowest requirement. Now, if he uses ANY of his transformations, he reaches that level. Even a Kaio Ken by itself would push him to that level. But as of right now? His might POSSIBLY create some sort of effect, but not on the same level as universal buster.

I also want to point out that while this dimensional ability is the most likely culprit of the universal busting shockwave, Goku is quickly approaching that level of power on his own. The raw physical power necessary to destroy the universe without any sort of hacks is quickly shrinking.

Let's take our original estimate of 8,166,168,595,711x necessary to reach universe busting level with raw power alone, then put it through the numbers we have so far for DB Super power increases:
8,166,168,595,711x: Start of Battle of Gods arc
816,616,859,571x: Accounting for natural increase during Goku Black arc
16,332,337,191x: Account for Super Saiyan Blue (most likely x50)
816,616,859x: Accounting for Kaio Ken x 20.

Now these are the numbers we are most confident on or know completely. As for God Goku and Ultra Instinct, we don't know for sure. At bare minimum, God form is above SS3's 400x and UI is at least x2. This brings out grand total to:
1,020,771x
This means that if God form is anywhere above a million times multiplier, that pushes Goku into guaranteed universal buster at max power. And according to my calculations/power scaling, God Form does indeed come in somewhere between 1 and 4 million.

So as a summary of my point, base form Goku is not quite close enough to reach the same level of universal threatening power that God form was at. But he is certainly powerful enough in any of his current forms, given the dimensional shockwave has already been shown at God form levels. Now at max power, Goku is almost certainly powerful to destroy a universe with his raw power without any sort of dimensional rip at all. Hope that answers your question, let me know if you have any questions!

@trask10100: Goku's base form didn't because me SSG level, the SSG for just made him stronger than before. At max his ssj form became SSG level, but I would argue that was more of a temporary power up as if it wasn't he should of just went ssj3 and tried to beat Beerus with that, since he though Beerus was using 100% of his power.

@alextheboss: I don't believe it was a temporary power up as there's too much evidence to the contrary. Vegeta managing to take SS3 Gotenks kick without flinching, being able to match Beerus while he was disguised as Monaka, and a few other less concrete examples. As for why he didn't use SS2 or 3, I imagine he might have been tired, fatigued, or possibly was having difficulty managing his new power. He was spending some of the time in his battle with Beerus learning to match Beerus's power directly after all. It's possible Goku simply couldn't go any further at that point, as the match had been going for a while at that point. Though I do agree that most likely his base form cannot reach universe buster quite yet, even with the unknown nature of the shockwave effect.

@trask10100: That was after Whis' training. Vegeta never even became a SSG. Even then that only puts there base around or a bit above Buuhan tier, and TBH they haven't been portrayed as even that strong lately.

TBH lately its like Goku boils down to 3 forms

Base, SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3 are, for most purpouses 1 form

SSG/SSB, another form

UI newest form

The pseudo black hole feat really says nothing for base Goku's DC or AP, even if it was quantifiable.

@thedarkpaladin: The fact that none of the zealots can prove their claims is also reason enough too ??

@masterskywalker: They rarely can. Just look what happened in the Shaka thread.

@thedarkpaladin: Yeah that became a shitshow

@thedarkpaladin: The pseudo black hole is black hole For DBS Fanboys

Everything that was shown and said in anime BoG is BS. Goku never absorbed SSG because he clearly uses it now. He is not universal because he was atleast below 5% Beerus, possibly lower since Whis compared RoF Goku and Beerus to small trunk and huge castle. The only universal Goku is UI.

Since first chapter :P

@gaoron: Lol!

Yeah obvsiouly. How legitimately stupid would you have to be to say otherwise? Saying base goku isn’t universal is just as bad as saying as Lifebringer galactus from marvel comics can’t bust a Star.

@mainjp: oh god we got another troll who doesn’t know anything g ain’t what he’s talking about. Comicvine is pretty sad.

Mmm, base goku no está en el nivel universal, estaría más o menos en el nivel de buutenks, alrededor del nivel galáctico.

Psdt: recuerden que goku ssg no solo aumento su cantidad de ki, sino tmb cambio de naturaleza de su energía, de ki mortal a ki divino.

Base Goku is Universal(really Low Multiversal) in the Anime since BoG and since post Future Saga in the Manga.

Base Goku oneshotted the super dense energy ball in BoG, a weaker one was about the bust the universe had beerus not nullified it

But this only applies to anime Goku, not manga, he didn't absorb the powers into his base form in the manga

Base form Goku is nowhere near universal. At most, he's galaxy level.

Yes

planet to star level.

During botg ssg goku's shockwaves threatened to destroy U7 and its macrocosm and turn it into a vacuum made of nothingness. Beerus had then nullified an attack that was going to do the same thing and turned it into nothing. After that a combined attack from beerus and goku that was stronger than the attack beerus nullified was destroyed by base goku. Base botg goku post god power absorption was that strong. Current base goku would be way above that.