Goku vs Naruto, equalized stats

@great_black_star:You have yet to prove sage mode boost= kk boost.

@tobi-wan "many ways", spam clones and try to overpower by numbers, goku needs just one AoE attack and everything is gone. Or he can just IT and attack the original naruto as he would have to summon the clones first after all.

Where is this fan fiction coming from? Just because Instant Transmission works on Dragon Ball characters does not mean it will work on Naruto characters or Naruto himself. Naruto is not Cell, Buu, or Beerus:

Naruto is not going to stand there like Cell, Beerus, and other characters. Naruto has better reflexes than those guys this is just factual. What AoE attacks does Goku have? This sounds like a basic strategy that Naruto can easily counter. Goku is just too basic I doubt any of his school boy tactics would work.

@great_black_star:You have yet to prove sage mode boost= kk boost.

@tobi-wan "many ways", spam clones and try to overpower by numbers, goku needs just one AoE attack and everything is gone. Or he can just IT and attack the original naruto as he would have to summon the clones first after all.

@tobi-wan: Who's alt are you? O_o

You're referencing anime filler for your argument. In the manga nobody sits there and waits for an attack.

@tobi-wan:

Naruto is faster than Cell, Buu and Berrus now? Beerus? The guy with MFTL feats?I need to ask you where is your fan fiction coming from?

@tobi-wan:

Where is this fan fiction coming from? Just because Instant Transmission works on Dragon Ball characters does not mean it will work on Naruto characters or Naruto himself. Naruto is not Cell, Buu, or Beerus:

Naruto is not going to stand there like Cell, Beerus, and other characters. Naruto has better reflexes than those guys this is just factual. What AoE attacks does Goku have? This sounds like a basic strategy that Naruto can easily counter. Goku is just too basic I doubt any of his school boy tactics would work.

Naruto is faster than Cell, Buu and Berrus now? Beerus? The guy with MFTL feats?I need to ask you where is your fan fiction coming from?

@great_black_star:You have yet to prove sage mode boost= kk boost.

@tobi-wan "many ways", spam clones and try to overpower by numbers, goku needs just one AoE attack and everything is gone. Or he can just IT and attack the original naruto as he would have to summon the clones first after all.

Not that it matters, since the debate on what qualifies as a transformation is a fair argument here, I think, but when I made the thread I wasn't even thinking about kaio-ken. The point was to specify that they couldn't increase their powers so that there was nothing they could do to fight at uneven stats. So in hindsight I probably would have just banned all transformations and techniques that boost stats, but whatever.

what's funny is that even with "equalized stats", Goku is still much better at controlling his Ki than Naruto... meaning he would have better control over his speed, strength, endurance, etc. resulting in Goku fighting like he had better stats than Naruto anyway.

No offense, but this is what we call being nitpicky. The purpose of equalized stats is to avoid meaningless arguments over stuff like this lol.

in terms of performance, using ki/chakra: higher control+stats > lower control+stats

Exactly what effect do you think this will have? I mean maybe if the fight drags on for a while, then MAYBE this could be an issue, but Naruto has the ability to end this pretty quick. Clones with equal stats to Goku and rasenshurikens, etc. Even if you're making an endurance argument with ki/chakra control here, Naruto seriously had dozens of clones maintained fighting across multiple battlefronts during the war, so I think he'll be just fine in this regard

This without taking into account his superior martial artsskill and experience... which would give him the edge in the "control" department as well, and Kaioken too of course as a stats multiplier technique.

Seriously, the h2h aspect of this fight is being wanked to hell. NEITHER Goku NOR Naruto are "PURE" h2h combatants, but Goku's the one banking on it here. Naruto's style isn't dependant on it, but with Frog Kata and the relevant hax involved with that, he can more than keep up with Goku. Not to mention extending chakra arms as well. And really, everyone likes to play word games here apparently. If Kaioken is a technique, then so are Sage Mode and KCM and Bijuu Mode. The word "mode" is not synonymous with "transformation." If you literally want to play word games, then the only verse here officially using the term transformation is DBZ with regard to super saiyans, etc. What Naruto does are actually in substance, nothing more than techniques. For sage mode, Naruto absorbs nature energy into his body. For KCM and BM, Naruto covers his body in yellow/gold chakra for a stat boost, just as goku covers his body with red ki for kaioken stat boost. Does that sound similar to you? It should because it is. And honestly, the multiplier for Bijuu Mode is ridiculous. Naruto is what in base mode, capable of making small craters with rasengan? In Bijuu Mode he becomes a multi mountain buster in DC with the durability to match. I'm not even going to do the math for that, but it's a hell of a lot more than a 20X boost and not at all as temporary as kaioken. Personally, I think you and everyone should drop this silliness and assume stats remain equal and focus on the substance of goku's techniques and what he's actually bringing to the table. I've been lectured on going back and forth on what people do in character lol, so fine lets play that game too. Goku doesn't even do kaioken in character anyway; he's more likely to just transform to super saiyan and give that a go. Maybe if he's desperate, but Naruto can seriously end this match before that.

It was also demonstrated that, when Captain Ginyu took possession of Goku's body, he couldn't move or fight NEARLY as good as Goku... despite having the same "stats", and literally the same body.

Actually, there were special reasons for that. Been years since I've seen the show, but I think they said something like Ginyu didn't have a pure heart like goku or something like that? I honestly can't quite recall, but it wasn't anything like ki control I don't think.

again, control is necessary to make the most of your body. (and Naruto is nowhere near Goku's level)

This is nitpicky. Naruto controls himself just fine and performs quite well for what he needs to do. Making comparisons like this is quite pointless really. Again, no offense.

lol this is hopeless... honestly, you'd have to nerf Goku way more to give Naruto a chance.

Not necessary really. The current nerfs are enough to make this a stomp for Naruto already. :)

@vermillion0831:hi

i wasn't really looking for an actual debate... i just had some input on this battle that i wanted to give.

K. My bad. You sorta seemed to want to get involved to me. I imagine most people simply overlooked your post.

anyway, allow me to make a small example, as for me it will be easier to explain this way;

<<< let's say 2 people have the same exact stats, infact they're twins and they both train at the gym. They basically have the same body, but one of the 2 is a professional boxer... the other has never never thrown a punch in his life. Who's punch is gonna hurt more? who's punch will be faster? more precise? more powerful? >>> Obviously, the one from the boxer.

This example would carry a lot more weight if Naruto were not also trained as a fighter...Taijutsu is basic at the ninja academy; even though, Naruto initially was quite poor at this at least until learning Frog kumite.

we can make the same example if one of them is used to running, jumping, kicking, etc. and the other is not... basically, with all physical activities. It is just logical that the one who's better at something, at equal "stats", is always gonna perform better than the other... again, while having the same exact stats.

Look, I'm not a physician or any type of expert on the human body and I wont pretend to be, but technically, someone who in your examples is actually training as a boxer, runner, kicker, etc. is using different muscles than a person not doing those activities or at least conditioning their body in an entirely different way. In that case, they really wouldn't have the same "stats" as you're implying.

This was the part of my initial point that you called, being "nitpicky"... but no, i wasn't. "Equalized stats" means just equalized stats, not ability... not skill... not experience... not ki control... just stats.

Yes, this is still nitpicky. The ENTIRE point of equalized stats is to avoid this kind of pointless debate. You mention something about "not cheating" below, but DBZ fans are trying to bend the rules for any kind of edge possible here, including what you're doing lol. Goku has actually had even fights with equal stats/power levels in DBZ and his amazing "ki control" and martial arts background has never allowed him to fight better than his opponents...

Goku is better at: controlling his ki(to quickly and accurately boost his stats),

So now you're saying equalized stats means they both start out equal, but goku gets to use his ki to go beyond that? umm....no, that's not at all how this works. Lol, naruto characters can move chakra around in their bodies as well to have an effect on stats. Or Naruto can use shunshin jutsu to move faster. It's not the same as his base normal running speed or travel speed afterall. Do you see the pointless arguments we get into over this? Equal stats literally means treat both sides as being equal. Stop trying to circumvent this.

controlling his body(even without the usage of chakra/ki), fighting in general(martial arts, experience, skill, talent, etc.) Do you really think that Naruto could fight him as equal? even with the same stats Goku is still going to perform much better, punch harder, move faster, dodge quicker, last longer, etc.

Nitpicking at its finest really

same "stats" doesn't mean equal performance.

Actually, as far as physicals are concerned, it does here. You can feel free to make an actual case for how Goku wins with his actual techniques though. That's the only type of performance difference that matters here.

look, Kaioken is not a "mode"

I see you're stuck on words, completely ignoring my explanation from before...

Kaioken also comes with negative effects on your body, it's kinda like straining yourself... pushing your body to the limit.

K? And? Sage mode and KCM could have potential negative effects too. If sage mode is done incorrectly, you turn into a stone frog. With KCM, Naruto initially ran the risk of completely running out of chakra and dying if Kurama didn't play along and stop draining all of his chakra while the mode was in use. Not an issue anymore, since they're pals now.

Under the influence of adrenaline, normal people can bring out their full potential and accomplish feats of strength that they never imagined they could do... but that's not a transformation isn't it? and it's not a "mode" either, right? they just have access to unused reserves of strength that you normally can't access. Kaioken kinda works like this.

No, Kaioken is very clearly a technique. You've pushed it as such, and so has everyone else. Your explanation here is completely ignoring that and making it sound like a natural physiological condition, which it most certainly is not lol. Also, unused reserves of strength kinda sounds like the bijuu chakra that's inside of naruto at all times lol.

Everyone still keeps saying it's a technique for A REASON... (and trust me, Goku doesn't even need it to win)

LMAO. Sorry, but that is quite hilarious indeed. LITERALLY everyone has been saying otherwise b/c they realize the sad truth. It's also why DBZ fans have been most likely trying to circumvent the OP since day 1 of this thread. I haven't gone back and read all of this thread and don't intend to, but I imagine the arguments have not changed much lol.

KK is a technique that puts a strain on your body to gain better stats for a short amount of time... it's NOT cheating, it's NOT a "mode" or a transformation, it's obviously just a technique that he learned like IT or Kamehameha, that he can use at any point in time and during any of his actual transformations.

Ok? The OP actually made his intentions clear in a few posts back saying that kaioken and stat boosting tricks of any kind were not supposed to be allowed, but seems he's content to let us play a game called "What counts as a transformation?". Look, if you define kaioken as a technique b/c it was learned, then that same logic applies to naruto. Naruto "learned" how to gather natural energy from the frogs. Naruto "learned" how to use the bijuu chakra inside of him during his "training" with fellow jinchuurikki Bee. You're just using double standards here, and seem to be stuck on the word "mode." If I tack the word "mode" at the end of kaioken, does it suddenly become a transformation to you? No, it doesn't. Words are just words. Look at the substance.

So in conclusion, it's part of his repertoire. It's part of his skill set. Part of the actual techniques he had to LEARN and CONTROL to be able to perform it properly... capish? i don't wanna have to repeat this another time. Not a transformation. Not a "mode".

Sure...Just like Naruto "learned" and "controlled" his sage energy and bijuu chakra lol. You can repeat this as many times as you like, but I'll keep calling you out for using ridiculous double standards.

Case closed.

Hardly...

(sorry i sounded salty, but i wanted to make this as clear as possible)

Indeed, you do sound quite salty lol. But you're still infinitely more pleasant than the last guy I had this little dance with, so I'll maintain my polite demeanor for the moment. A certain amount of rudeness is acceptable as far as internet forum manners are concerned lol.

As for the Ginyu thing... look, you can believe whatever you want but i've watched DBZ every day at lunch after school for like 10 years...(not a fanboy, i always found it bad... but entertaining while you're eating) i've seen the namek saga multiple times, i remember it pretty well... unlike you.

This would carry a lot more weight if you bothered to post a scan or explained where it could be found. Sorry, but I have no reason to trust YOUR memory of the namek saga from years ago.

My point is still valid.

Actually, the point was entirely moot and not at all on point. I probably shouldn't have bothered to pick at it, just being thorough (lol, now I'm being nitpicky XD). Naruto is in his own body, one that he controls well and is used to. He doesn't have to get used to Goku's body, or ki, like ginyu did. Looking back, I'm not even sure why you brought it up.

By all means, feel free to prove it wrong if you can.

Get the feeling this wont be enough to convince you, but see all of the above lol.

Where is this fan fiction coming from? Just because Instant Transmission works on Dragon Ball characters does not mean it will work on Naruto characters or Naruto himself. Naruto is not Cell, Buu, or Beerus:

Naruto is not going to stand there like Cell, Beerus, and other characters. Naruto has better reflexes than those guys this is just factual. What AoE attacks does Goku have? This sounds like a basic strategy that Naruto can easily counter. Goku is just too basic I doubt any of his school boy tactics would work.

@vermillion0831:

1) Lol nitpicky. Nothing more to be said here.

K. Nice debating skills

With or without Kaioken, Goku's hand game has been shown to be leagues above someone who relies on a bunch of clones that get ran through like a hot knife through butter. It's that simple. Frieza was not Goku's equal, least not in the manga, nor was Cell.

Seemed to be to me. Whatever, fine.

Your knowledge of DB has been brought into serious question with these latest claims lol. Goku and Vegeta's bout went undecided and given recent showings in DBS it's reasonable to assume the Saiyans had their own form of martial art (Cabba took the exact same stance as Vegeta in Saiyan Saga.) so don't go making baseless claims about Vegeta's background, yeah? Lol we using databooks now eh? This is sad. Goku has Naruto beat in h2h. You'll get over it. No one ever said that skill alone would win him the battle you nut

LMAO! Of course it won't. Goku needs a stat advantage to compete. Most everyone already knows this, but for some reason you refuse to acknowledge it.

but if Naruto goes in for h2h, he's getting smacked up. Brutes like Momoshiki gave him the work, no way he's contending with Son.

Momoshiki's stats were equal to Naruto's? Because Goku's are here actually.

2) Nah you're a Nardo fan. The fact he's "elevated" on this fantasy forum makes you wet. I can tell lmao

Lol, not really. I've done my fair share of arguing against Naruto's high end feats. Accusing someone else of bias will get you nowhere. Let's see, you've got the Dragonball handle/username, Dragonball character avatar, and surprise surprise you're representing goku here. I daresay the bias label suits you much more than I friend. :)

3) No amount of wank in the world is going to make me see past their fodder tier treatment. Dura is ass, so as far as I'm concerned, so are their other stats. That rubber guy protected him yet again with Madara lool

K. Really nice debating skills there. Translation: "I'm a blind DBZ fanboy and no amount of common sense, logic, or examples is going to make me admit I'm wrong, and Naruto's techniques work however I say they do despite evidence to the contrary just cuz." LMAO

4) Yawn. Still arguing whether Sage "Mode" is a transformation are ya? lool Keep deluding yourself. The sage arts are the the techniques, the mode itself a transformation.

I've never been so impressed with someone's debating skills. Sir, you are a master of your craft. / sarcasm. OP actually confirmed stat boosting of any kind wasn't supposed to be allowed, but says he will sit back while people play word games. I hate it, but whatever, yeah, none of Naruto's modes are actually transformations, they're techniques in substance, things naruto learned how to do. If only you could look past useless labels like "mode." How sad. His various "modes" boost his stats a hell of a lot more than 20X over and not as temporary. LOL Naruto stomps via superior stats.

5) They aren't going to connect if he picks up on the attack. Lol at Naruto's clones making effective use of Frog Kata. Link me to this fanfic?

Sure, right after you link me to the fanfic where Naruto's clones somehow don't know the various jutsu of the original despite literally every situation where they are used proves the opposite lol.

Oh and he just used Kaioken recently. :P Naruto gets rekt. Frog Kata is debunked.

Lol. Wish I could live in your fantasy world, where you prove nothing, make patently false claims, and display complete ignorance for the situation as it exists between the two characters being debated, and yet somehow have the nerve to claim that you have "debunked" something. Good lord man.

6) K fine Naruto is equally as fodder as his clones apparently. Doesn't matter to me either way lol Stop making excuses with this dura crap. And I'm not linking any scans. I referred you directly to the instances with Kabuto and Madara. I expect you to already know what you're arguing for. And yea I exist on this forum because guys like you supply the lulz. Somehow a bunch of clones that often get fodderized are going to tip the scales in Nardo's favor? Haha ok

Lol, damn straight. Unless you have an argument for why they don't. A glass cannon can still hit hard before it breaks. Also more nice debating skills. I'm not going to reread a manga I barely care for to prove YOUR claims. lmao

The rest are mostly ramblings and not arguments. Not bothering. You ramble too much m8

My bad, I've tried simplifying things for you, not as many big words here this time and less for you to read. Heaven forbid you use your brain too much, you might hurt yourself lol. :)

@vermillion0831: ok good response, but to summarize everything i want to say in this last example... the situation is precisely like this:

< 2 drivers are racing with their cars... those cars have the same stats, but the driver with more skill and experience is always going to win the race. >

- in terms of use of physical attributes(think of applications for your speed, strength, etc.) and control of one's body, goku is the better "driver".

- in terms of energy attacks and energy control, goku is the better "driver".

Who's going to win this race?

Goku... simply put, he is better at using his own stats than naruto, despite having the same. He's the better "driver" in this metaphor.

unforunately for naruto, it's through mind and personality that you affect HOW you're gonna use your stats, and this is where goku proves himself better.

(btw this "race" is only a metaphor for their ability to use their stats, not to fight... which is where goku's advantage would be even greater)

Let's just end the clones argument here while I'm at it.

Even Tien is capable of producing a blast large enough to hit hundreds of soldiers. This is holding back too.

Even tracksuit Gohan is capable of taking down huge numbers of fodder while holding back.

Not only that, but look at the size of a blast even Nappa could create.

I'm sorry Naruto fans but there really is no way that Goku isn't going to quickly annihilate any clones Naruto makes.

...Um this metaphor isn't exactly on point at all. Your example maybe would work if this were a pure martial art match and naruto and goku were not using any ki/chakra/jutsu etc. However, your example speaks nothing to what happens when Naruto makes a 1000+ clones with equal stats to goku (not that he needs that many), with rasenshurikens, frog kata, etc. Not sure what you're saying Goku will do besides just beat up naruto just cuz you think Goku is so much better. If you don't want to continue, I wont force you. Since you said last example, just assuming you want to stop.

haha dude, read what i said pls...

>...I did in fact...

quote: (btw this "race" is only a metaphor for their ability to use their stats, not to fight... which is where goku's advantage would be even greater)

and yet you respond me like this is all about fighting... it was about their stats, i made it pretty clear.

>...The only thing you made clear is that you completely ignored what I told you in one of my previous posts about how the concept of equalized stats is supposed to prevent pointless arguments like this...

the metaphor is simple and on point, the "car" is their "body", which includes all their stats... and the "driver" is their "mind", who controls their body.

>...Yes, all of that was quite clear, which is why I'm telling you it wasn't on point actually...

it's not that hard...

>LOL! You know, I'd be able to tolerate your smugness here if you actually had an argument for why Goku wins. All your example does is make an irrelevant point that is negated by the OP's "equalized stats" stipulation. All you have done is say that Goku can use his stats better (untrue here as the OP dictated), and some vague notion that "Goku's advantage would be even greater" in the actual fight, despite not elaborating on what the hell that means lol. Instead of making ridiculous examples/metaphors that aren't germane to the discussion, how about you specifically explain what goku does to win this match?

@vermillion0831:

While I do disagree and believe that Sage mode is a transformation, I will say that you are right and it's clear OP doesn't want anyone to use kaioken. Don't worry I won't try that argument.

>Thanks, I appreciate this. Seriously, that kaioken argument was getting old. Honestly, Naruto's mode's are techniques that were learned really. Only nitpicking going on. I can't even... Nevertheless, in the spirit of fairness, I'm not seriously trying to push the point.

The problem is, Goku never has to fight fodder. He comes in for the big fights. All these characters are significantly weaker than Goku to the point that Goku would have no problem replicating their feats. Meeting Naruto halfway would still put him above them in power.

>Doesn't really matter who really. The point is Goku doesn't really do this to people that are on his level, nor do I see any reason to suggest he can. People on his level would be capable of dodging his attacks or otherwise keeping him so hard pressed that he doesn't have time to go for ki blasts like this, at least not ones that can't be dodged. I've never seen such a thing in DBZ really. With potentially a 1000+ narutos running about, don't really see why goku will have time for any of this really.

They may not be fodder in terms of strength and speed, but in terms of durability the clones are more foddery than Frieza's army. One blast on this level is all Goku needs. I don't see the clones closing in faster than Goku can fire off his ki blasts.

>Unless Goku actually does this to people on his level, or people on his level are incapable of dodging said ki blasts, then I think the overall point stands.

Naruto could only create three of those clones and they seemed to drain his power significantly. This seems closer to the multi form technique in dragon ball since Naruto fought better as one rather than split into clones.

>Actually he created about four. Context is important too; I forgot I actually debated with you shortly after I first entered this thread nearly 1-2 weeks ago, and you mentioned not being too familiar with Naruto in general. Fair enough as I'm not too familiar with DB Super. First, the way the shadow clone jutsu works, chakra is divided equally, not stats. As far as can be seen from the show, when a clone is destroyed or a clone is dispelled by naruto himself, the chakra does not return to him. By this point, naruto had been in several fights back to back. Against madara making clones in that fight. Next, fighting kaguya, making 100s or thousand+ clones in that fight, so naruto's chakra has been divided many times over, hence why he is tired in the chapter. No rest between any of that before fighting sasuke. Not the case here as he starts with a full tank. Sasuke in the chapter has amped himself with the bijuu at this point, actually becoming much much stronger than naruto. One of the kurama avatars receives a hit from the enhanced sasuke susano'o and the kurama avatar actually holds up. Durability of the avatar actually probably exceeds what naruto can do on his own so for sake of argument, I'm naturally saying the chakra shield is just equal to naruto himself and goku to keep things fair and even. The attempt to combine and fight better is an attempt to counter this highly amped version of sasuke, while kurama actually gathers energy for naruto to counter the amped sasuke.

I don't think that's what equalized stats means. I'm pretty sure they are equalized at the beginning of the fight and they go from there. I don't think every single clone is going to have their stats equalized to Goku's durability and all. Their stats should be based on Naruto's increased levels.

>Actually, the clones durability is garbage, but all other stats literally stay the same despite some people trying to lowball the hell out of that in this thread. Hence using the kurama avatar to make up for that. By surviving an attack from someone stronger (the amped sasuke) and holding up, this shows the clones can be protected from anything but an attack that would also cause significant damage to himself (goku) at least for our purposes.

Except Goku has a perfect track record of not getting hit with any of those attacks. In fact, his enemies statistically get hit with their own cutting attacks more than they hit Goku. Even Cell tried to use Frieza's technique when he was significantly stronger than Goku and it still couldn't hit him.

>Point was if it hits, it will kill. Not saying it can't be dodged, but naruto has options to throw it or use as a melee attack like his normal rasengans. A bit harder to dodge attacks from up to 1000+ clones no? Also, didn't know cell was stronger than goku. Given how long the fight lasted and how even it seemed, there couldn't have really been a meaningful difference in power level between the two. Maybe cell had an option to go further increase power but chose not to or something. idk

Goku has many ways around those techniques. For example, a quick IT can get him out of a pinch or a solar flare can stun Naruto. Goku also has a number of ways to one shot Naruto. Destructo disc comes to mind. IT kamehameha is literally unstoppable.

>Don't know if super retconned the idea, but last I recall, IT needs goku to lock on to a ki source; he cant just teleport anywhere anytime. If he could, he could have just IT'ed the self destructing cell to some empty lot in space somewhere instead of king kai's planet. Point is, naruto and goku are the only one here. with precog and danger sensing, naruto will react to that as he has feats reacting to teleporters in sasuke and kaguya. As for destructo disc, it gets dodged quite often by people no? again not using a double standards, but a thousand narutos trying to hit a target will more likely hit than one goku trying to hit one naruto when he has no way to know which naruto is real and each clone can potentially dodge a destructo disc. As for solar flare, I remember you brought it up last time we were debating, but Dark paladin beat me to the punch in pointing out how naruto can fight with sage sensing even if blind, so that's not doing anything here.

Naruto's got clear on panel feats reacting to people that are actually much faster than himself. In fact he consistently faces people that are superior to him in terms of stats and comes out on top anyway.

This here is every main Shonen character. Nothing Goku hasn't also done before.

>I say Goku has trouble reacting and beating people that are equal or about the same in terms of power level, so this is quite relevant here. Goku ever done this without the character he's facing holding back or Goku getting a KK stat boost or ssj transformation to even the odds? If so, please refresh my memory.

That type of tactic and the ones in your gifs work well when there's a huge difference in powerlevel. Again, that's not at all the case here.

Not necessarily. They work against large numbers of enemies, typically those with lower durability, which happens to describe Naruto's clones perfectly.

>Again, unless naruto's clones can't dodge a ki blast or can't put up the kurama avatar in time, no worries.

Let's take a closer look at Goku's instant kamehameha. Some people might think it takes a while to charge up due to the anime filler in the fight against cell. This is not the case. In the manga it is implied to be fired almost as soon as Goku teleports. If we take a look at Goku's fight with Beerus we can see it is rather quick. In fact, it is quick enough to land on the God of Destruction who happens to be more than just a few times stronger than Goku.

>Not doubting the IT Kamehameha, but I'm not sure anything short of a super Kamehameha will really work for this purpose. How will Goku find the real Naruto among the clones. How many super kamehamehas does goku have in him anyway?

@vermillion0831:

Sorry, but the reason this is still going is because DBZ fans continue to play the kaioken stat boost card despite the obvious intentions of the OP. Then the OP decided to drop a post at the end of the previous page; letting people play word games to decide what's a transformation and what's not lol. Not really a good game to play since technically Naruto's modes are techniques and provide a boost greater than 20X. Which is why I advise people to drop the silliness and stick with OP's original intent.

While I do disagree and believe that Sage mode is a transformation, I will say that you are right and it's clear OP doesn't want anyone to use kaioken. Don't worry I won't try that argument.

Your examples would work better if those were Goku.

The problem is, Goku never has to fight fodder. He comes in for the big fights. All these characters are significantly weaker than Goku to the point that Goku would have no problem replicating their feats. Meeting Naruto halfway would still put him above them in power.

part of the point here is that in those examples, you got higher level characters blasting away fodder, not characters dashing in as quickly as Naruto would be here and hitting just as hard as goku

They may not be fodder in terms of strength and speed, but in terms of durability the clones are more foddery than Frieza's army. One blast on this level is all Goku needs. I don't see the clones closing in faster than Goku can fire off his ki blasts.

Naruto can actually create clones with the Kurama Avatar. See naruto chapter 696.

Naruto could only create three of those clones and they seemed to drain his power significantly. This seems closer to the multi form technique in dragon ball since Naruto fought better as one rather than split into clones.

If you play by the OP's intended rules and go with equalized stats, then whatever wide area ki blast goku uses wont oneshot the clones using the kurama avatar chakra shield unless you are saying that whatever weak ki blast goku uses would one shot him as well. Equalized stats remember. This gives Naruto a very clear advantage in numbers and non fodder clones with protection lol

I don't think that's what equalized stats means. I'm pretty sure they are equalized at the beginning of the fight and they go from there. I don't think every single clone is going to have their stats equalized to Goku's durability and all. Their stats should be based on Naruto's increased levels.

I still say he basically wins with numbers, equal speed stat, and a rasenshuriken cutting technique that DBZ characters have a terrible track record with feats wise. I mean before Cell no sold a destructo disc, that technique worked on everyone regardless of powerlevel. Goku has a feat I recall of blocking trunks' sword, but his powerlevel was higher.

Except Goku has a perfect track record of not getting hit with any of those attacks. In fact, his enemies statistically get hit with their own cutting attacks more than they hit Goku. Even Cell tried to use Frieza's technique when he was significantly stronger than Goku and it still couldn't hit him.

Whatever technique goku uses will need to be an attack that would oneshot him as well. meanwhile, Naruto has techniques that can one shot goku. Not seeing why Goku wins at all tbh.

Goku has many ways around those techniques. For example, a quick IT can get him out of a pinch or a solar flare can stun Naruto. Goku also has a number of ways to one shot Naruto. Destructo disc comes to mind. IT kamehameha is literally unstoppable.

Naruto's got clear on panel feats reacting to people that are actually much faster than himself. In fact he consistently faces people that are superior to him in terms of stats and comes out on top anyway.

This here is every main Shonen character. Nothing Goku hasn't also done before.

That type of tactic and the ones in your gifs work well when there's a huge difference in powerlevel. Again, that's not at all the case here.

Not necessarily. They work against large numbers of enemies, typically those with lower durability, which happens to describe Naruto's clones perfectly.

Let's take a closer look at Goku's instant kamehameha. Some people might think it takes a while to charge up due to the anime filler in the fight against cell. This is not the case. In the manga it is implied to be fired almost as soon as Goku teleports. If we take a look at Goku's fight with Beerus we can see it is rather quick. In fact, it is quick enough to land on the God of Destruction who happens to be more than just a few times stronger than Goku.

1 point at a time... i don't like kilometric discussions on pultiple points, while your interlocutor doesn't agree on even 1 of them.

>lol. K? Saw this after I logged out originally...so came back to address this...

i've chosen the stats argumentsimply because it was the first i addressed that you didn't agree with.

>K? Good for you...

what are you going to do, next? keep ignoring my post deviating on other arguments, or actually face it and properly address it as you should've in this last post of yours?

if you can't counter the fact that Goku has more control over his "stats" than Naruto, i'm just gonna claim the victory over this point and move on...

>...yeah... Something isn't clicking with you here... There is literally no reason for me to address this point. Equalized stats means this bullshit right here doesn't matter. Better move on, or this could take the rest of my lifetime, and I assure you I have better things to do than keep coming back here while you present an argument 1 piece at a time lol. Just get on with it m8. Drop the pointless analogies, and just make a case already.

@vermillion0831:

1) Says the guy who tried to force an argument that I had not been pushing nearly as much as he implied to be my main stance. Got called out on his bs, then admitted he was exaggerating lmao Shut up. There's nothing to debate when you've already supplied yourself with the L. I know full well what my argument has been thus far, so don't try any strawman shit from here on out,yeah?

>LOL, now I'm genuinely confused. Does Goku need kaioken or not? Which stance are you actually taking here. You've done nothing but waste my time with that argument even though it should have been obvious that the OP never intended that to be used even before he confirmed it at the end of the previous page.

Moving on. Yeah, you haven't read the manga. Acceptance was too quick lol. And I wasn't aware I was inclined to agree to something just because a handful of people did.

>Yes, there's a reason everyone is playing the kaioken card lol. Guy can't win over Naruto without a stat edge. This is just a fact and laughable that you don't understand that much.

The Momo thing still shows he has crappy taijutsu lool Sasuke sent him tumbling.Why Naruto getting shown up by a one armed Sauce? LOL Goku > Nardo h2h. Not debatable.

>LOL, if you say so...

3) Kakashi outright stated that Naruto's clones may work well as diversions but he wouldn't be able to land any "meaningful hits" I'd say that's pretty consistent with their showings haha So what's this confirm for stats? Shit dura and damage output apparently. Goku has nothing to fear from clones lmao You clinging to battles one clone had while being protected all the while lmfao

>If you've got other examples then feel free to post or give a chapter reference. I don't have encyclopedic knowledge on Naruto or DBZ. I'm familiar with both; no rules here suggest that I need to be a blind fanboy to have an opinion. My example I gave, which you seem to be familiar with answers at least 2 issues you have: Stats and ability of clones to use the original's jutsu. For some reason you are ignoring that and focusing on how Naruto had help. Why does that matter? The original Naruto would have been unable to defeat the edo third in KCM as well; Rasenshuriken would not have pierced the guy's lighting chakra shield, as he could only have been pieced by his own technique. You missed the point of my example entirely there pal.

4) Lol useless labels. The series passes them off as "modes" Your opinion on it is of no importance. Accept that they're transfromations and get over it already. Now you're wet over the fact that Nardo's transformations provide him with more of a boost than a simple technique Goku has lmfao I'm done. Super Saiyan 1 alone > those weak ass Bijuu modes, boy. Act like you know.

>hmmm, since when is the word "mode" synonymous with "transformation"? If I tacked mode at the end of Kaioken, is it suddenly a transformation now? If you explained why a technique naruto "learned" how to do is somehow a transformation and not a technique, then I would humor your nonsense. Or, you could just play by the OP's rules which he pointed out on the previous page and we could move on beyond this pointless stat boost argument that you've been pushing since my first post with you.

5) Haha just as thought. No evidence to show.

>LMAO, when did you show evidence? The edo third example literally proves all you should need. The clones do what naruto can do. FACT. It went sage mode on its own, did multi shadow clone jutsu, did a number of rasenshurikens, and was using KCM at the beginning. I say that proves enough as to whether clones know the original's jutsu.If you say otherwise, I'm going to need some proof m8.

6) Yes Frog Kata is debunked because the incompetent arguing for it has yet to prove it's effectiveness against such an opponent. Goku feels the shift in pressure in the atmosphere and dodges. Simple. Debunk me. You can't.

>Right...b/c Goku with stats equal to naruto is going to be so much faster than naruto that he can get out of his attack range no problems right? Multiply this by up to 1000+ Narutos and you should see how absurd you really are. Oh right... you don't even believe Naruto's clones have equal stats to the original. SMDH, I can't even... Lol at sensing air currents helping goku at all here.

7) Lol glass canon is factually incorrect given how Kakashi described their offense.

>Link it or drop it m8

Only on the vine will people argue for the fodder clones Naruto summons to prove useful in battle

>Right...they literally never help Naruto in any of his battles against stronger opponents than himself. Oh wait...

hahaha And I know it's nice debating.

>No it's actually quite pathetic really, and a waste of my time tbh.

Shame you have no idea what i'm referring to, which begs the question, why're you even debating the topic? lool

>B/c being a blind fanboy, or having encyclopedic knowledge on a series is not a requirement to debate genius. Around here, you prove your own claims or drop it. Don't expect other people to do the work you're too lazy to do. :)

@vermillion0831: no reason to fake ignorance when you know exactly what i'm talking about... that's bad and it makes you seem immature.

>Fine, whatever you say chief. Your posts are here and so are mine. Let's let anyone who bothers to read the posts decide who made more sense

anyway you concede this point then, correct? good, finally... it took us some time, but now we established that Goku is still gonna perform better than naruto, even at equal stats.

>Was a pointless argument lol, but take whatever victory you can I guess. As I said, both of our posts are here on the vine so let others who bother to read them be the judge

moving on...

>Thank you for not wasting my time further...

stats performance:

goku > naruto

fighting skill:

goku > naruto

energy attacks and manipulation:

goku > naruto

strategy, experience and mental attitude for fighting:

goku > naruto

overall talent and ability to adapt during a fight:

goku > naruto

effectiveness of techniques:

goku > naruto

number of techniques:

naruto > goku (lol finally)

WELL... i literallty have no idea how you can rationally think that Naruto has a chance, but whatever.

as far as actual techniques and counters, we both know goku has multiple answers to everything naruto can do.

Final Verdict: Goku wins

>LMAO! OMG! Seems I spoke to soon about you not wasting my time further. Man, and I thought the other guy I debated was the worst I had ever seen, but no this quite literally takes the cake. None of those are arguments, just opinions for which you have not explained or provided any support for lol. I honestly don't know where to begin with this mess. I can't even... Seriously, how about you actually explain with some level of detail how you expect goku to win, not this trivial bullshit that you call an argument. If you do, then I will be more than happy to debunk or attempt to debunk whatever you say.

@vermillion0831: lol honestly... this is between me and you, and as far as i'm concerned you are pretending to be on top of the debate

>Not pretending at anything honestly...

while you actually lost on all points.

>This implies a debate actually took place between us when you did nothing of the sort really...

That's just sad.

>If only you could see the irony here...

You couldn't counter any of my arguments

>Sorry? Where I come from arguments consist of points/opinions (which you have) that are actually backed up by explanations, logic, evidence from the source material, RELEVANT metaphors/analogies, etc. (which you don't have). I guess I'm just old fashion that way...

, you could only dismiss them without any proof of logic

>Oh the irony...

nor anything else... all you did was trying to "act cool" while completely losing/ignoring the 1 and only main point of our debate.

>Actually, at this point, I'm trying to "act" like I have some patience when I really don't. I've put up with more nonsense from you than I care to tbh.

Then you even pretended to not understand the easiest metaphor in the World... and after i explained you why it made perfect sense, you simply acted like it was all about something else... and pretended i wasn't talking about their stats, when i explicitly told you i was in the actual post you replied to!!

>Yes, all of that was terribly obvious, and I explained to you why that argument was pointless. Both characters have equalized stats here, yet you are trying to give goku some type of ridiculous unfair advantage by saying he will "use his stats better."

and you wonder why my last post only had statements? let's see, maybe that's because:

>Yes, I am wondering in fact. I'm beginning to think you don't know how debates/arguments work. Stating conclusions without backing them up is not a debate. Two people debate b/c they disagree about the conclusions, hence they need to provide logic, explanations, etc. to convince the other side. You have literally done none of this.

1) it was the conclusion.

2) they're really not debatable... and it's pretty obvious, goku IS the best martial artist of the 2, he IS the best ki user of the 2, he IS the most experienced fighter of the 2... etc.

>Sorry if I disagree, but I literally have no reason to agree to conclusions you have stated that you have not bothered to back up with any type of evidence.

3) there's no reason to keep arguing with you if you can't even keep up with 1 single point without losing yourself.

>I haven't lost myself, but I'm beginning to think you don't know what the hell you are talking about tbh...

4) somehow i know this is the best way to deal with you in this discussion... just pure and simple facts. They're well known and obvious even to noobs.

>Well gee, this thread has gone on for 16 pages and 8 months so things aren't that clear cut. Most people are literally arguing goku needs the stat boost of kaioken to even do anything here. But hey, too bad you weren't around 8 months ago; your crystal clear arguments could have saved everyone the trouble and ended this thread on page 1. LMAO!

You either counter them, or automatically show you're full of nothing.

>You haven't given me anything to counter here, just your unsupported opinion really. You want I should state a random opinion without proof? Ok, Naruto stomps goku easily! Now counter that if you will lol. meanwhile I countered your ridiculous claims back in posts 764 and 767. After that, you started making completely irrelevant metaphors that were going nowhere. Now you make conclusions based on absolutely nothing, then accuse me of being "full of nothing"? The hypocrisy is real...

stats performance:

No one has countered Muda's or PrinceAragon's arguments.

I still stand with Naruto winning.

@vermillion0831: so in the end you proved you're full of nothing... haha

@vermillion0831: sure keep talking... you already showed what you're made of, buddy.

>So have you. What are you 10 years old?

you couldn't counter 1 single point.

>I actually countered more than 1. Your entire post 761 was countered in my post 764. Your entire post 765 was countered in my post 767.

not 1 single argument... instead all you did was this LOL

>My bad. I can't help but LOL when I see people say stupid bullshit. I'm just set in my ways at this point; no reason for me to change. Let me laugh at you again: hahahahahahahahahahahaha! <deep breath> hahahahahahahahahaha!

(you said):

> I either never said any of this bullshit down here, or you're taking it completely out of context. The problem we are having may be that you can't read, or you have a reading comprehension problem. If this is the case, then I'll feel bad later, but I'm still gonna make fun of you for now. And what the hell, since I'm here, let's go through it piece by piece.

no... you never proved goku is better h2h fighter than naruto... it doesn't count just saying it...

>You didn't PROVE anything. Just saying that you believe he is is not an argument; it literally DOESN'T count; not here, and not in any debate really. Don't know why you think just stating an opinion is an acceptable form of argument.

i'm sure naruto could probably hold his own against son goku... but no kaioken please...

>Reading is fundamental. Anyone reading the OP or just paying attention to his post in 748, knows that kaioken was not supposed to be allowed. Since reading is a problem for you, I guess you missed it though.

no... goku could never counter my naruto's fodder-clones...

>If you actually made an argument for how he would do that, then we could go from there, but you never did.

each of them is literally as strong as the original...

>In terms of attack and speed? Yes. In terms of durability? No. I never said otherwise in this thread or anywhere else.

and twice as durable!

>I seriously challenge you to copy and paste where I say this. Go on I'll wait. Otherwise, you're proving that you are full of shit here.

no... their skill doesn't matter as long as they have "equalized stats"...

>Not true, but I did say goku's h2h isn't a deciding factor. You were free to make an actual argument for how it made a difference, but you never did. All I got out of you were ridiculous analogies unfortunately.

their performance will be just the same... they will fight equally...

>In terms of strength, speed, and potency of attacks? Yes. You were the one trying to say goku will get some type of stat boost despite the rules of the thread. My bad, you never read the rules of the thread did you now? Reading problem and all that.

no wait, i bet naruto is probably much better in the long run...

>This is true enough as far as arguments I've had with other people. I've been having actual arguments with other people -- actual back and forth debates really. Again, with you, I countered your nonsense, then you threw meaningless examples at me.

no... kaioken is 100% cheating... it's totally the same as naruto's bijuu transformation... take it away nooo...

>Oh? I actually thought this was settled back in post 767 when I called you out for using double standards. You defined kaioken as a technique (actually at one point you tried to pass it off as a biological function of some sort LMAO) b/c goku "learned" to "control" it, then I explained that Naruto "learned" to "control" his sage energy and bijuu chakra. You don't see the double standards here? I've actually been playing fairly as the OP intended throughout my time in this thread; it's only ridiculous DBZ fans like you who have been trying to argue for a stat edge. Your arguments were the most absurd and blatant attempt at this in the entire thread since I've been here. I tried to explain equalized stats to you, but you kept insisting goku would hit harder, dodge faster, etc., completely ignoring the purpose of the thread.

---> and you're still doing it!! hahahahaha

>*sigh* Still correcting you? Yes, I'm still doing that unfortunately. Probably no point really, since I know you can't read now, this is probably going to be somehow distorted into something entirely different from what I said, but whatever.

okok enough with this.

>This is something people earn the right to say after they make a sound argument/counterargument or give up after being frustrated by the idiocy of the other side. I've experienced both as far as we're concerned, but I'm definitely feeling the latter much more at this point.

we're done.

>Good god, I hope so. As long as you don't misinterpret anything else that I've actually said here that I need to correct. Please get help with that reading problem ok? Capisce?

goku should win this

more skill and fight experience better techniques(kamehameha-distructo disk -solar flare-instant transmission-kaioken-telekinisis etc)

No one has countered Muda's or PrinceAragon's arguments.

I still stand with Naruto winning.