@mudamudamuda: kiaoken puts strain on the body, goku trained in 100x gravity. His got use ti the strain, have you ever watched dbz by any chance ?
I know you haven't.
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You do realize he was back on his feet and continuing the fight right after that right? Not to mention that was with Kaio-Ken x20 if I'm not mistaken, a MUCH larger strain than Kaio-Ken x2, 3, and 4 that he can use with almost no strain whatsoever.
@mudamudamuda: kiaoken puts strain on the body, goku trained in 100x gravity. His got use ti the strain, have you ever watched dbz by any chance ?
I know you haven't.
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You do realize he was back on his feet and continuing the fight right after that right? Not to mention that was with Kaio-Ken x20 if I'm not mistaken, a MUCH larger strain than Kaio-Ken x2, 3, and 4 that he can use with almost no strain whatsoever.
No, he didn't. He could barely move at all and he started charging the Genki dama right after that. My point it to debunk the nonsensical claims about Kaio-ken no longer affecting Goku, which Kaio-ken that was doesn't matter. x2 or x3 wouldn't be enough to deal with all the clones.
Like I said, this Kaio-ken argument is pure hypocrisy. The OP made stats equal and stopped transformations from increasing them for a reason, looking for a loop hole based on arguing semantics "it's called a technique, not a transformation" is beyond silly, and by that logic, Sage mode And Kyuubi mode are called modes not transformation, so they still increase Naruto's stats.
@randomsid: Actually I remember king kai telling Goku not to go over 2x kaio ken in the saiyan saga because it would do to much damage to his body. Regular kaioken and 2x did nothing to Goku.
@comicstooge: He's taken out martial arts masters since he was a kid. Are you trolling...?
Again, it's relative. The title "master" means little.
King Chappa was a former champion of the world martial arts tournament. That means one of the strongest in the world. Goku still one shotted him twice.
Well, Kakashi beat Lee, who has actual established feats.
He also beat Tambourine like it was nothing. That's the same Tambourine who was going around killing all the martial artists on the planet.
Zabuza as a child killed more than one hundred potential Genins by himself with absolutely no training of any kind. Kakashi beat him pretty bad whenever they went head-to-head.
@mudamudamuda: kiaoken puts strain on the body, goku trained in 100x gravity. His got use ti the strain, have you ever watched dbz by any chance ?
I know you haven't.
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You do realize he was back on his feet and continuing the fight right after that right? Not to mention that was with Kaio-Ken x20 if I'm not mistaken, a MUCH larger strain than Kaio-Ken x2, 3, and 4 that he can use with almost no strain whatsoever.
No, he didn't. He could barely move at all and he started charging the Genki dama right after that. My point it to debunk the nonsensical claims about Kaio-ken no longer affecting Goku, which Kaio-ken that was doesn't matter. x2 or x3 wouldn't be enough to deal with all the clones.
Like I said, this Kaio-ken argument is pure hypocrisy. The OP made stats equal and stopped transformations from increasing them for a reason, looking for a loop hole based on arguing semantics "it's called a technique, not a transformation" is beyond silly, and by that logic, Sage mode And Kyuubi mode are called modes not transformation, so they still increase Naruto's stats.
Are you serious? That was a much higher level of Kaio-Ken than he had trained with. He had only trained with the Kaio-Ken x10 I believe on the ship on the way to Namek and he had mastered it so it didn't hurt him at all. You are using an out of context, way back at Namek saga scan to support your argument that anyone that has actually read the manga or watched the show knows is false. And yeah, if stats are equal, then Kaio-Ken x2 would absolutely demolish the clones. However, I wasn't even the one that brought up the Kaio-Ken, I was just correcting the bull that it hurts him. He doesn't really need it though. Someone else I believe also said something about the Instant Transmission requiring concentration, but that is not exactly true either. It does, but he has shown the ability to concentrate almost instantly on using it as he has used it against Cell with no problems, against Buu with no problems, and multiple times against Beerus with no delay whatsoever. I personally don't know who would win with all stats equal. Both are excellent fighters(shut up Naruto downplayers, shut up DBZ haters), and both have some pretty good moves to pull off a win. I do, however, think it's kinda ridiculous that you have to take away any and all advancements Goku has over Naruto just to make it a fair fight.
@randomsid: Actually I remember king kai telling Goku not to go over 2x kaio ken in the saiyan saga because it would do to much damage to his body. Regular kaioken and 2x did nothing to Goku.
Yes, I know x2 did nothing to him. He trained his body to resist the damage to that Kaio-Ken can do. Only times it has actually hurt him is when he pushed it above what he normally used. Granted, other than the movies he hasn't really used Kaio-Ken since Namek saga.
That was a much higher level of Kaio-Ken than he had trained with.
Irrelevant. Whats so hard to understand about people saying that Kaio-ken no longer hurting him when it clearly does ?
He had only trained with the Kaio-Ken x10 I believe on the ship on the way to Namek and he had mastered it so it didn't hurt him at all.
He still seemed in pain after using kaio-ken x 10.
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You are using an out of context, way back at Namek saga scan to support your argument that anyone that has actually read the manga or watched the show knows is false.
Anyone who had actually read the manga knows that Goku never used Kaio-ken after Namek Saga so claiming that it no longer hurts him is what's BS when the last time he was seen using it he was still being affected.
And yeah, if stats are equal, then Kaio-Ken x2 would absolutely demolish the clones.
Goku is going to Kill 1000+ people with precog and coordinated attacks in a heart beat ? Tell me more.
however, I wasn't even the one that brought up the Kaio-Ken, I was just correcting the bull that it hurts him.
Then don't jump in a discussion if you aren't fully aware of what's being discussed. And you didn't correct anything, people said that Kaio-ken doesn't hurt him you are saying that Kaio-ken x 20 still hurts him, you argument is contradicting what other people are saying not what I'm saying.
He doesn't really need it though.
The entire Kaio-ken argument was a pathetic nitpicking attempt. I'm surprised anyone would try to support it in the first place.
Someone else I believe also said something about the Instant Transmission requiring concentration, but that is not exactly true either. It does, but he has shown the ability to concentrate almost instantly on using it as he has used it against Cell with no problems, against Buu with no problems, and multiple times against Beerus with no delay whatsoever.
So you are telling me this because ?
Both are excellent fighters(shut up Naruto downplayers, shut up DBZ haters), and both have some pretty good moves to pull off a win. I do, however, think it's kinda ridiculous that you have to take away any and all advancements Goku has over Naruto just to make it a fair fight.
Agreed, I don't like these kind of threads either.
@comicstooge: He's taken out martial arts masters since he was a kid. Are you trolling...?
Again, it's relative. The title "master" means little.
King Chappa was a former champion of the world martial arts tournament. That means one of the strongest in the world. Goku still one shotted him twice.
Well, Kakashi beat Lee, who has actual established feats.
He also beat Tambourine like it was nothing. That's the same Tambourine who was going around killing all the martial artists on the planet.
Zabuza as a child killed more than one hundred potential Genins by himself with absolutely no training of any kind. Kakashi beat him pretty bad whenever they went head-to-head.
Killing world renowned masters of martial arts>>>killing little kids who haven't even graduated from the academy.
Also, Kakashi and Zabuza were using Jutsu for the most part.
Naruto has more versatility as a fighter, but I hate his character with a damn passion. So therefore I'm rooting for Goku to IT spam and beat the hell out of him
@randomsid: Yea I understand that but let me ask you this if Goku were to use kaio ken with ssj and train with it would it hurt him?
Considering he has trained his body to bear the Kaio-Ken and the fact that SSJ doesn't hurt his body at all, all it does is drain the energy when you haven't mastered the form, which he has. I don't see how it would.
That was a much higher level of Kaio-Ken than he had trained with.
Irrelevant. Whats so hard to understand about people saying that Kaio-ken no longer hurting him when it clearly does ?
It isn't irrelevant because he has shown that after training with it, it no longer affected his body like that.
He had only trained with the Kaio-Ken x10 I believe on the ship on the way to Namek and he had mastered it so it didn't hurt him at all.
He still seemed in pain after using kaio-ken x 10.
Did you seriously try to pass off pain from being hit as pain from the Kaio-Ken? Seriously?
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You are using an out of context, way back at Namek saga scan to support your argument that anyone that has actually read the manga or watched the show knows is false.
Anyone who had actually read the manga knows that Goku never used Kaio-ken after Namek Saga so claiming that it no longer hurts him is what's BS when the last time he was seen using it he was still being affected.
Yes, I know he doesn't use it after the Namek saga, except in the one movie I believe he used Kaio-Kenx100 in, which I know isn't canon, but not the point. The point was he was shown training his body for it and it not affecting him that way, he was shown doing that way back in the saiyan saga, and again in the Namek saga. The ONLY time it has hurt him is when he went past his training level.
And yeah, if stats are equal, then Kaio-Ken x2 would absolutely demolish the clones.
Goku is going to Kill 1000+ people with precog and coordinated attacks in a heart beat ? Tell me more.
I don't know, the same way he had an entire fight with Vegeta in a hearbeat at only Kaio-Ken x2. It increases stats just like the SSJ transformation does, just to a lesser degree. If stats are equal, then Kaio-Ken puts him at double the speed of all those clones. So then he would be twice as strong, twice as fast, twice as durable. It isn't really that hard to see. And being precog doesn't matter if you aren't fast enough to react to it.
however, I wasn't even the one that brought up the Kaio-Ken, I was just correcting the bull that it hurts him.
Then don't jump in a discussion if you aren't fully aware of what's being discussed. And you didn't correct anything, people said that Kaio-ken doesn't hurt him you are saying that Kaio-ken x 20 still hurts him, you argument is contradicting what other people are saying not what I'm saying.
No, I actually did NOT say that Kaio-Ken x20 still hurts him, I said it still hurt him as of the Namek Saga, huge difference there. Just because he doesn't really use the Kaio-Ken anymore doesn't mean he didn't train his body more, I mean that is what he ALWAYS does, is training his body and mind. The only reason he doesn't use it anymore is because the SSJ transformation is more powerful.
He doesn't really need it though.
The entire Kaio-ken argument was a pathetic nitpicking attempt. I'm surprised anyone would try to support it in the first place.
Not really supporting him using it, just saying that you are wrong in thinking that it would "wreck his body". Though in this type of fight where he can't transform into SSJ I see no reason he wouldn't use it if it was still on the table.
Someone else I believe also said something about the Instant Transmission requiring concentration, but that is not exactly true either. It does, but he has shown the ability to concentrate almost instantly on using it as he has used it against Cell with no problems, against Buu with no problems, and multiple times against Beerus with no delay whatsoever.
So you are telling me this because ?
That part wasn't really directed at you, it was just thrown in there because I couldn't remember who said it and didn't feel like searching through the thread to see.
Both are excellent fighters(shut up Naruto downplayers, shut up DBZ haters), and both have some pretty good moves to pull off a win. I do, however, think it's kinda ridiculous that you have to take away any and all advancements Goku has over Naruto just to make it a fair fight.
Agreed, I don't like these kind of threads either.
At least we agree on that. I don't mind equalizing one stat on characters that are fairly equal without that one stat, but when you have to take away every single advantage to make it a fair fight, it isn't very fun.
It isn't irrelevant because he has shown that after training with it, it no longer affected his body like that.
How when he nearly dropped on the ground after using it on Freeza ?
Did you seriously try to pass off pain from being hit as pain from the Kaio-Ken? Seriously?
I'm referring to the panel right after he uses kaio-ken to get away. Not when he got punched.
Yes, I know he doesn't use it after the Namek saga, except in the one movie I believe he used Kaio-Kenx100 in, which I know isn't canon, but not the point. The point was he was shown training his body for it and it not affecting him that way, he was shown doing that way back in the saiyan saga, and again in the Namek saga. The ONLY time it has hurt him is when he went past his training level.
What "way" are you talking about ? We are discussing whether Kaio-ken hurts him or not the answer is that it does. I have no idea what the heck else you are trying to prove through this pointless discussion.
I don't know, the same way he had an entire fight with Vegeta in a hearbeat at only Kaio-Ken x2. It increases stats just like the SSJ transformation does, just to a lesser degree. If stats are equal, then Kaio-Ken puts him at double the speed of all those clones. So then he would be twice as strong, twice as fast, twice as durable. It isn't really that hard to see. And being precog doesn't matter if you aren't fast enough to react to it.
"An entire fight" which was a total of 2-3 punches against 1 person not a thousand of them. Being twice as fast as somoene doesn't make you too fast for them to reactto SMH
And Naruto is used to fighting people too fast for him to even see, someone twice as fast as him would get stomped with all those clones.
No, I actually did NOT say that Kaio-Ken x20 still hurts him, I said it still hurt him as of the Namek Saga, huge difference there. Just because he doesn't really use the Kaio-Ken anymore doesn't mean he didn't train his body more, I mean that is what he ALWAYS does, is training his body and mind. The only reason he doesn't use it anymore is because the SSJ transformation is more powerful.
I couldn't care less about any of this. Last time Kaio-ken was used it was still affecting goku's body, if you have any scans of Goku using Kaio-ken x 20 without being in pain then please do post it so that we can put an end to this waste of time. If you can't post the scan then stop arguing assumptions and making proof-less statements about Kaio-ken no longer affecting and stop dragging this discussion.
Not really supporting him using it, just saying that you are wrong in thinking that it would "wreck his body". Though in this type of fight where he can't transform into SSJ I see no reason he wouldn't use it if it was still on the table.
And I'm saying that I need proof. I don't reject evidence such as scans of him using kaio-ken x20 without damage so f you have any then post it and I'll concede otherwise this is just you trying to pass of your opinion as fact. Also he can transform, transformations just wouldn't change the stats because it was supposed to be a fight of skill and abilities not power multipliers which is why i called people bringing up Kaio-ken as "not a transformation" pathetic and arguing semantics. Guess what ? Kyuubi chakra and natural aren't transformations either so they should still affect Naruto's stats by that logic.
It isn't irrelevant because he has shown that after training with it, it no longer affected his body like that.
How when he nearly dropped on the ground after using it on Freeza ?
Dude, do you not get the difference between Kaio-Ken x2 and Kaio-Ken x20? He had trained for Kaio-Ken x10 in the ship heading to Namek, NOT Kaio-Ken x20 so when he pushed past his normal training limit, it hurt him, just like during the Saiyan Saga when he had trained for Kaio-Ken x2 and not Kaio-Ken x4. Kaio-Ken x2 didn't hurt him at all, but Kaio-Ken x4 did.
Did you seriously try to pass off pain from being hit as pain from the Kaio-Ken? Seriously?
I'm referring to the panel right after he uses kaio-ken to get away. Not when he got punched.
You mean right after he got punched? Have you ever been punched by someone stronger than you? Did you not look and act hurt afterwards? Sorry, but the seeming hurt came from Frieza hitting him, not the Kaio-Ken x10.
Yes, I know he doesn't use it after the Namek saga, except in the one movie I believe he used Kaio-Kenx100 in, which I know isn't canon, but not the point. The point was he was shown training his body for it and it not affecting him that way, he was shown doing that way back in the saiyan saga, and again in the Namek saga. The ONLY time it has hurt him is when he went past his training level.
What "way" are you talking about ? We are discussing whether Kaio-ken hurts him or not the answer is that it does. I have no idea what the heck else you are trying to prove through this pointless discussion.
The same "way" you are talking about. I am talking about the same thing as you. He has shown in the past that training his body reduces or completely removes the pain from using Kaio-Ken. In the manga and the show he had trained with Kaio-Ken x10 so that one did not hurt him at all. Kaio-Ken x20 was pushing past the limits of the training at that point, but it is the same training he does all the time so it's easily reasonable to assume that Kaio-Ken x20 would not hurt him anymore either.
I don't know, the same way he had an entire fight with Vegeta in a hearbeat at only Kaio-Ken x2. It increases stats just like the SSJ transformation does, just to a lesser degree. If stats are equal, then Kaio-Ken puts him at double the speed of all those clones. So then he would be twice as strong, twice as fast, twice as durable. It isn't really that hard to see. And being precog doesn't matter if you aren't fast enough to react to it.
"An entire fight" which was a total of 2-3 punches against 1 person not a thousand of them. Being twice as fast as somoene doesn't make you too fast for them to reactto SMH
WTF, that fight was most definitely NOT 2-3 punches. And actually, depending on the level of speed we are talking about here, it very well can make you too fast for them to react to. Since the level of speed was said to be in the middle of the two characters it is reasonable to assume it is still FTL speeds, so twice as fast WOULD make it so the clones could not react to him.
And Naruto is used to fighting people too fast for him to even see, someone twice as fast as him would get stomped with all those clones.
Lmao, no, they really wouldn't. You are forgetting about the increased power and durability as well. You are forgetting about the skill that Goku has as well.
No, I actually did NOT say that Kaio-Ken x20 still hurts him, I said it still hurt him as of the Namek Saga, huge difference there. Just because he doesn't really use the Kaio-Ken anymore doesn't mean he didn't train his body more, I mean that is what he ALWAYS does, is training his body and mind. The only reason he doesn't use it anymore is because the SSJ transformation is more powerful.
I couldn't care less about any of this. Last time Kaio-ken was used it was still affecting goku's body, if you have any scans of Goku using Kaio-ken x 20 without being in pain then please do post it so that we can put an end to this waste of time. If you can't post the scan then stop arguing assumptions and making proof-less statements about Kaio-ken no longer affecting and stop dragging this discussion.
Yes, when he pushed past his limit it was affecting his body, Kaio-Ken x10 did NOTHING to his body. Use a little logic, a person that continuously trains their body pushing past all limits they reach when they have already shown to be able to train their body to get used to the strain from Kaio-Ken at lower levels would naturally not feel any strain from Kaio-Ken x20 YEARS of training after he first used it.
Not really supporting him using it, just saying that you are wrong in thinking that it would "wreck his body". Though in this type of fight where he can't transform into SSJ I see no reason he wouldn't use it if it was still on the table.
And I'm saying that I need proof. I don't reject evidence such as scans of him using kaio-ken x20 without damage so f you have any then post it and I'll concede otherwise this is just you trying to pass of your opinion as fact. Also he can transform, transformations just wouldn't change the stats because it was supposed to be a fight of skill and abilities not power multipliers which is why i called people bringing up Kaio-ken as "not a transformation" pathetic and arguing semantics. Guess what ? Kyuubi chakra and natural aren't transformations either so they should still affect Naruto's stats by that logic.
You already have proof that he can and does train his body to not be affected by the strain of Kaio-Ken, you are just ignoring it for whatever reason.
Dude, do you not get the difference between Kaio-Ken x2 and Kaio-Ken x20? He had trained for Kaio-Ken x10 in the ship heading to Namek, NOT Kaio-Ken x20 so when he pushed past his normal training limit, it hurt him, just like during the Saiyan Saga when he had trained for Kaio-Ken x2 and not Kaio-Ken x4. Kaio-Ken x2 didn't hurt him at all, but Kaio-Ken x4 did.
What I don't get is why you keep on bringing up the Kaio-ken multiplier when we are discussing whether or not Kaio-ken can hurt him, not which kaio-ken can hurt him. Either way, Goku never trained his Kaio-ken past that ship training so saying that it will stop affecting him makes no sense...
You mean right after he got punched? Have you ever been punched by someone stronger than you? Did you not look and act hurt afterwards? Sorry, but the seeming hurt came from Frieza hitting him, not the Kaio-Ken x10.
That's not how DBZ characters usually act. The fact that Goku wasn't hurt enough by the punch and used his Kaio-ken to escape the rest of the attacks before feeling pain contradicts your point.
The same "way" you are talking about. I am talking about the same thing as you. He has shown in the past that training his body reduces or completely removes the pain from using Kaio-Ken. In the manga and the show he had trained with Kaio-Ken x10 so that one did not hurt him at all. Kaio-Ken x20 was pushing past the limits of the training at that point, but it is the same training he does all the time so it's easily reasonable to assume that Kaio-Ken x20 would not hurt him anymore either.
Yeah that doesn't seem reasonable at all to me considering he never trained his Kaio-ken x20. You started this conversation claiming that you had proof that Kaio-ken no longer affected him and yet here you are unable to provide the proof and only rely on your own reasoning.
WTF, that fight was most definitely NOT 2-3 punches.
Yeah it was.
Kaio-Ken = 1 KiAi + 2 punchs + 1 kick :
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Kaio-Ken x 2 = Enough to dodge 2 attacks
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Kaio-Ken x 3 = 2 kicks + 1 punch :
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Goku never had enough time to attack more than 2-3 times while using his Kaio-ken against Vegeta.
And actually, depending on the level of speed we are talking about here, it very well can make you too fast for them to react to. Since the level of speed was said to be in the middle of the two characters it is reasonable to assume it is still FTL speeds, so twice as fast WOULD make it so the clones could not react to him.
No it wouldn't. Someone being twice as fast as you wouldn't make them too fast for you to react to, even less with precog and when there is a thousnad people around.
Lmao, no, they really wouldn't. You are forgetting about the increased power and durability as well. You are forgetting about the skill that Goku has as well.
Increase in power is irrelevant because the clones aren't there for their durability. Kaio-ken does not increase durability. Sage mode and Kyuubi mode on the other hand do. Skill wouldn't save him from a thousand people nearly at the same level as him in base form and far stronger with their amps.
If out of all the clones 2 clones each clone mange to grab an arm each it would be over for Goku.
Yes, when he pushed past his limit it was affecting his body, Kaio-Ken x10 did NOTHING to his body. Use a little logic, a person that continuously trains their body pushing past all limits they reach when they have already shown to be able to train their body to get used to the strain from Kaio-Ken at lower levels would naturally not feel any strain from Kaio-Ken x20 YEARS of training after he first used it.
Kaio-ken x 10 was shown affecting him.
That's not logical when Goku hasn't trained his Kaio-ken in the slightest during any of these years.
You already have proof that he can and does train his body to not be affected by the strain of Kaio-Ken, you are just ignoring it for whatever reason.
I don't see any proof. All you are saying is Goku got stronger so maybe he can handle Kaio-ken better. That's not proof at all.
@marshall_long: If you watch BoG he sub blitz LORD BEERUS with it. Someone far stronger and with far better reaction speeds than these two in these conditions.
And guys wasting time arguing with this Muda troll won't get you very far. Especially considering Goku doesn't even use Kaio Ken anymore, and this is current Goku we're debating. It would be out of character for him to do so in the first place.
And guys wasting time arguing with thus Muda troll won't get you very far. Especially considering Goku doesn't even use Kaio Ken anymore, and this is current Goku we're debating. It would be out of character for him to do so in the first place.
Flagged. If you have something to say about me be brave enough to tag me at least. :)
@mudamudamuda: i mean okay. You're a troll. It's very obvious Goku doesn't have strain when using Kaio x4-x10 anymore. You're obviously trolling, you troll. At the beginning of the series what was the max shadow clones Naruto could make and could he or could he not make more in the buffed up version used in the op? You're a trolllll. No other way to put it.
@mudamudamuda: i mean okay. You're a troll. It's very obvious Goku doesn't have strain when using Kaio x4-x10 anymore. You're obviously trolling, you troll. At the beginning of the series what was the max shadow clones Naruto could make and could he or could he not make more in the buffed up version used in the op? You're a trolllll. No other way to put it.
LOL It's funny because I never said anything about Kaio-ken x 4 whereas x10 did have a side effect on him. I like how you call me a troll when you and the other "Goku goes Kaio-ken x20 it's not a transformation" are the ones not making sense. Spamming the word troll doesn't make your argument more correct, hopefully one day you will understand that. :)
It's funny because shadow clones and Kaio-ken have nothing in common, Naruto could make 1000+ clones since chapter 1 and unlike Goku Naruto actually showed that he could make his clones in his most powerful form.
No logic at all and anyone who disagrees is called a troll. Just another DBZ thread. lol
LOL, at this thread. I don't know what's funnier, people arguing that Naruto can last even 4 seconds against goku in a h2h or Naruto overwhelming him with clones(we saw how that turned out against people with superior taijutsu lol).
Naruto wouldn't dare approach Goku lest he wants to go six feet under. h2h is out of the question. He's best bet would be to get distance and come up with a strategy that would work against his foe, and honestly his options are very limited..
With OPs stipulations naruto wins. Distract him for a second and throw 1000 rasenshurikens at him. Goku isn't the smartest guy and naruto is about plans. He'd easy fall for transformation and or substitution jutsu. Precog makes instantaneous teleportation useless. Or he could seal him. Goku won't even be able to get close with kurama arms. They could hold him in place while naruto seals or blasts him. Naruto has the shunshin jutsu to get out of holds, traps, or to avoid blows.
You dbz crybaby fanboys are the worst man. You arent even arguing stats or abilities, you're just like muh, muh goku. Yes goku stomps naruto normally but definitely not with equalised stats.
With OPs stipulations naruto wins. Distract him for a second and throw 1000 rasenshurikens at him. Goku isn't the smartest guy and naruto is about plans. He'd easy fall for transformation and or substitution jutsu. Precog makes instantaneous teleportation useless. Or he could seal him. Goku won't even be able to get close with kurama arms. They could hold him in place while naruto seals or blasts him. Naruto has the shunshin jutsu to get out of holds, traps, or to avoid blows.
You dbz crybaby fanboys are the worst man. You arent even arguing stats or abilities, you're just like muh, muh goku. Yes goku stomps naruto normally but definitely not with equalised stats.
Dude, do you not get the difference between Kaio-Ken x2 and Kaio-Ken x20? He had trained for Kaio-Ken x10 in the ship heading to Namek, NOT Kaio-Ken x20 so when he pushed past his normal training limit, it hurt him, just like during the Saiyan Saga when he had trained for Kaio-Ken x2 and not Kaio-Ken x4. Kaio-Ken x2 didn't hurt him at all, but Kaio-Ken x4 did.
What I don't get is why you keep on bringing up the Kaio-ken multiplier when we are discussing whether or not Kaio-ken can hurt him, not which kaio-ken can hurt him. Either way, Goku never trained his Kaio-ken past that ship training so saying that it will stop affecting him makes no sense...
Because the multiplier matters. Surely you can't be that blind. But then again, going by the rest of your post maybe you are. And the FACT of the matter is that the training for the Kaio-Ken technique was the EXACT same training he ALWAYS does, so YES, he has trained past that. He doesn't use Kaio-Ken past the Namek saga because it would be pointless as the SSJ transformation is much more powerful, simple as that.
You mean right after he got punched? Have you ever been punched by someone stronger than you? Did you not look and act hurt afterwards? Sorry, but the seeming hurt came from Frieza hitting him, not the Kaio-Ken x10.
That's not how DBZ characters usually act. The fact that Goku wasn't hurt enough by the punch and used his Kaio-ken to escape the rest of the attacks before feeling pain contradicts your point.
That is too how DBZ works, they show it all the time. I'm starting to agree with @iusemycajonas about you being a troll.
The same "way" you are talking about. I am talking about the same thing as you. He has shown in the past that training his body reduces or completely removes the pain from using Kaio-Ken. In the manga and the show he had trained with Kaio-Ken x10 so that one did not hurt him at all. Kaio-Ken x20 was pushing past the limits of the training at that point, but it is the same training he does all the time so it's easily reasonable to assume that Kaio-Ken x20 would not hurt him anymore either.
Yeah that doesn't seem reasonable at all to me considering he never trained his Kaio-ken x20. You started this conversation claiming that you had proof that Kaio-ken no longer affected him and yet here you are unable to provide the proof and only rely on your own reasoning.
Once again, the training for Kaio-Ken is the exact same training he always does, so you are wrong once again. Then you make another patently false claim, my first post said aboslutely nothing about proof that Kaio-Ken did not affect him. This was my first post:
@mudamudamuda: Kaio-Ken has not "wrecked his body" since the Saiyan Saga...just saying
WTF, that fight was most definitely NOT 2-3 punches.
Yeah it was.
Kaio-Ken = 1 KiAi + 2 punchs + 1 kick :
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Kaio-Ken x 2 = Enough to dodge 2 attacks
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Kaio-Ken x 3 = 2 kicks + 1 punch :
Gallery
Yes, lets just ignore all the flying around and avoiding attacks and the fact that it was when he first learned the Kaio-Ken technique and call it a couple of moves, that makes sense. /sarcasm
Goku never had enough time to attack more than 2-3 times while using his Kaio-ken against Vegeta.
Yes, lets just ignore all the flying around and avoiding attacks and the fact that it was when he first learned the Kaio-Ken technique and call it a couple of moves, that makes sense. /sarcasm
And actually, depending on the level of speed we are talking about here, it very well can make you too fast for them to react to. Since the level of speed was said to be in the middle of the two characters it is reasonable to assume it is still FTL speeds, so twice as fast WOULD make it so the clones could not react to him.
No it wouldn't. Someone being twice as fast as you wouldn't make them too fast for you to react to, even less with precog and when there is a thousnad people around.
Once again, the speed they are moving matters, if someone is moving at a rate of 20mph, being twice as fast wouldn't make them too fast for another person moving at 20mph to react to. For someone moving at FTL speeds it absolutely would. And that is just talking about Kaio-Ken x2, there is still x3, x4, all the way up to x20 that he has used in canon. Go ahead and make your baseless claims that x20 would "wreck his body" after years of further training with no logic whatsoever behind it.
Lmao, no, they really wouldn't. You are forgetting about the increased power and durability as well. You are forgetting about the skill that Goku has as well.
Increase in power is irrelevant because the clones aren't there for their durability. Kaio-ken does not increase durability. Sage mode and Kyuubi mode on the other hand do. Skill wouldn't save him from a thousand people nearly at the same level as him in base form and far stronger with their amps.
If out of all the clones 2 clones each clone mange to grab an arm each it would be over for Goku.
Yes, Kaio-Ken does increase his durability. He goes from taking major damage before using it to taking only superficial damage after using it against Frieza. It is just like the SSJ transformation, only not as powerful. If 2 clones managed to grab his arm, which is highly unlikely in the first place, they would be gone in less than half a heartbeat.
Yes, when he pushed past his limit it was affecting his body, Kaio-Ken x10 did NOTHING to his body. Use a little logic, a person that continuously trains their body pushing past all limits they reach when they have already shown to be able to train their body to get used to the strain from Kaio-Ken at lower levels would naturally not feel any strain from Kaio-Ken x20 YEARS of training after he first used it.
Kaio-ken x 10 was shown affecting him.
That's not logical when Goku hasn't trained his Kaio-ken in the slightest during any of these years.
No, it was not, he was affected by a punch right before it. And for the final time, the training for Kaio-Ken was the exact same training he does all the time.
You already have proof that he can and does train his body to not be affected by the strain of Kaio-Ken, you are just ignoring it for whatever reason.
I don't see any proof. All you are saying is Goku got stronger so maybe he can handle Kaio-ken better. That's not proof at all.
The proof is in the fact that he trained to withstand the effects of higher levels of Kaio-Ken, everybody can see it except you. After all of this I definitely agree with the cajonas guy, you are most definitely a troll and I will not be continuing this discussion. It is pointless to debate with a troll as they will never agree to anything just out of spite.
Raditsu (and by extension all DBZ characters more powerful than him) can catch bullets without harm. The only sword that can truly injure them is Tapion's, and only if caught unaware (Mecha Furiza); Goku blocks the sword with his index finger without damage. All of Naruto's various ninja tools are useless (he never learned to imbue wind-chakra like Asuma).
Ki is basically the same thing as senjutsu, and therefore more powerful than regular everyday chakra. It takes a good amount of time for Naruto's clones to gather it, while Goku does so in a few seconds. Naruto's only real chakra techniques are all Rasengan-related and either require direct contact (which has been shown to be interceptable/interruptible by both Kakashi and Jiraiya) or are thrown ridiculously slow to someone like Goku. The Z-Fighters dodge energy attacks all the time and catch bullets; Naruto isn't hitting him with any of the various rasenshurikens.
Goku spends nearly every waking moment training or fighting against strong foes. He the epitome of a martial arts master, a genius on the battlefield. Naruto spends a lot of his time doing things teenagers do. When he does train, it's only to learn new jutsu or master his forms (which don't help him here; no stat boots). Naruto is a brawler, lacking any real taijutsu outside a makeshift patchwork of the academy style. He's the epitome of lucky, and arguably should never have won most of his fights. In a pure martial fight, Goku flattens him like Bruce Lee.
The only advantage Naruto has is his nearly limitless supply of clones. Goku has been shown to be able to differentiate a clone from its original. Ergo, he may fight them just for the fun of it (with a smile on his face), but if he starts to get overwhelmed, he'll immediately go after the Boss. He's also at least marginally precognitive, so Naruto's various booby traps involving clones won't work.
The last trick in Naruto's arsenal is his Orioke no Jutsu (Sexy Technique), which might leave Goku scratching his head but otherwise unaffected. He's basically the opposite of a pervert.
Goku also has access to things Naruto's never even seen, such as Zanzoken, an invisible blast of Ki from the eyes, Solar Flare, and Kaio-Ken.
At the end of the day, Goku has the abilities, the skills, and the experience to put Naruto down.
LOL, at this thread. I don't know what's funnier, people arguing that Naruto can last even 4 seconds against goku in a h2h or Naruto overwhelming him with clones(we saw how that turned out against people with superior taijutsu lol).
Naruto wouldn't dare approach Goku lest he wants to go six feet under. h2h is out of the question. He's best bet would be to get distance and come up with a strategy that would work against his foe, and honestly his options are very limited..
Stats are equalized, this is a battle of skill and techniques. If you think that Kaioken gives Goku a boost (which it shouldn't considering the rules of this battle), then so does Sennin mode to Naruto. I'm pretty sure that ever regular Sennin mode amps your stats (in this case the normalized stats) more than 20x Kaioken.
@thepeaceweapon: Please read post #182 and counter it for me please. Naruto has no versatility, Ransengans and shadow clones are not as versatile as what Goku can do with his ki, and other innate abilities.
And by the way, calling Goku not the smartest guy about his battle tactics is kind of showing you've yet to watch at least five episodes of the show, and neither of the movies.
@super_blah: ...but Roshi is way weaker than Raditz...?
Bah, Raditz is the scale by which all other characters are measured. The Scouters should have registered things like 10Raditz, 1.3Raditz, etc. Vegita only kept him around cause he was lucky enough to be one of the last remaining Saiya-jins.
Because the multiplier matters. Surely you can't be that blind. But then again, going by the rest of your post maybe you are.
If there is someone blind here, it must be you. Apparently you couldn't even read how everyone else was claiming that Goku can use Kaio-ken x 20 to win and that it has no effect on his body and when I corrected that you barged in to start discussing Kaio-ken x2 completely missing the point.
And the FACT of the matter is that the training for the Kaio-Ken technique was the EXACT same training he ALWAYS does, so YES, he has trained past that. He doesn't use Kaio-Ken past the Namek saga because it would be pointless as the SSJ transformation is much more powerful, simple as that.
Goku stated that he would be training his Kaio-ken, something that he never ever did past the Namek Saga. To be completely frank with you at the risk of sounding rude, I couldn't care less about your opinion. If you have a scan proving that Goku can now use his Kaio-ken without as damage then post otherwise you are just wasting my time and since we both know this scan does not freaken exist it makes me wonder if you are just arguing for the sake of arguing.
It is quite strange to see people claiming that anyone who has read DBZ would know like the guy who first addressed the Kaio-ken issue at me yet miserably failed to provide any form of evidence. And it's even more strange for you to support his claims with only a half understanding of what we are discussing then also fail to post decisive evidence to back your point. This attitude from the fans is what makes me dislike DBZ threads.
That is too how DBZ works, they show it all the time. I'm starting to agree with @iusemycajonas about you being a troll.
Then stop wasting both our times with your fanfictions Kaio-ken immune Goku. It is already hard enough to remain polite with people who make absolute condescending claims then fail miserable to back them with scans, if you are also going to accuse me of trolling to try and cover your lack of factually correct statements then I think I'll just stop wasting my time on you before running out of patience. No offense intended but my patience is wearing thin as you may have noticed.
Once again, the training for Kaio-Ken is the exact same training he always does, so you are wrong once again.
I'm sorry I haven't realize that the exact same training Goku ever does is training his Kaio-ken under increased gravity... Oh, wait because it isn't. SMDH
And I hope you realize that you can only use "once again" if you have actually established anything before, which you clearly haven't lol
Then you make another patently false claim, my first post said aboslutely nothing about proof that Kaio-Ken did not affect him. This was my first post:
@mudamudamuda: Kaio-Ken has not "wrecked his body" since the Saiyan Saga...just saying
And in case you haven't noticed, I didn't give a damn about your first post, so why you would tell me this is beyond me. Then again, the same goes for most of the juxtapositions you have been trying to pass off as facts.
Yes, lets just ignore all the flying around and avoiding attacks and the fact that it was when he first learned the Kaio-Ken technique and call it a couple of moves, that makes sense. /sarcasm
I just love how you twist the hell out of my statements then call me the blind troll... You claimed that Goku had an entire fight within a heart beat, I correct you and my original post was :"An entire fight" which was a total of 2-3 punches against 1 person not a thousand of them." Not "a couple of moves" SMDH
And while we are at it, lets also ignore that I brought up the damn Vegeta fight not because it was his first Kaio-ken but because you made the claim about him fighting freaken Vegeta.
Once again, the speed they are moving matters, if someone is moving at a rate of 20mph, being twice as fast wouldn't make them too fast for another person moving at 20mph to react to. For someone moving at FTL speeds it absolutely would.
Except that the stats equalized includes their damn reflexes, it doesn't matter if you are sonic, light speed of MFT. You would still be able to react to someone twice as fast as you unless your freaken reflexes were never on par with your speed to begin with =_=
And that is just talking about Kaio-Ken x2, there is still x3, x4, all the way up to x20 that he has used in canon.
And there is still sage mode and Kyuubi mode that definitely amp Naruto far beyond a mere 20. Which for some reason you keep on completely ignoring while focusing on the Kaio-ken nitpicking.
Go ahead and make your baseless claims that x20 would "wreck his body" after years of further training with no logic whatsoever behind it.
This is just pathetic. You are the one making baseless claims, you can't provide a single damn scan showing Goku using Kaio-ken x 20 without getting damaged... Not a single one. You can't even post any kind of evidence pointing out to Goku training his Kaio-ken ever again. Yet I'm the one making baseless assumptions ?
If this is how people argue logic in DBZ nowadays then I must say I'm starting to feel bad for the series.
No, it was not, he was affected by a punch right before it. And for the final time, the training for Kaio-Ken was the exact same training he does all the time.
Translation : "I only believe what I want to believe, even If I don't have proof you are still wrong just cuz".
The proof is in the fact that he trained to withstand the effects of higher levels of Kaio-Ken, everybody can see it except you. After all of this I definitely agree with the cajonas guy, you are most definitely a troll and I will not be continuing this discussion. It is pointless to debate with a troll as they will never agree to anything just out of spite.
Let's see.
> Fails to realize that he is debunking his very own point by pointing out to Goku enduring previous Kaio-ken forms by training his Kaio-ken which he never ever did again
> Calls people trolls for being unable to post decisive evidence.
> Relies on argumentum ad populum to make it look like he established anything
I have been patient enough with you because I though you could listen to reason based on some of our previous discussions, but seems like I was wrong and I think it's safe to call you a DBZ fapboy at this point. Good to know you won't be continuing this conversation because you have wasted enough of my time as it is. :)
Goku. For a start, being a Sayian, fighting is in his blood. He's way more versatile than Naruto and has fought with and been trained by the greatest martial arts masters in his universe. He was two time runner up in the world martial arts tournament as a child. Even if they do meet in the middle there's literally nothing he can do to counter Goku blowing his head off with an Instant Transmission Kamehameha, and unluckily for Naruto he's not some android that can regenerate his head back. Also Goku might be naive, but he's not stupid, he's actually a fighting genius. He grew up alone, in the woods!
@mudamudamuda: OK, about to be working and this will be my last reply to you period, but I couldn't resist this part. You claim to "not give a damn" about my original post, but YOU are the one that brought it up. Typical troll, shown they are wrong so their response is "I never said that". Hilarious really.
@mudamudamuda: OK, about to be working and this will be my last reply to you period, but I couldn't resist this part. You claim to "not give a damn" about my original post, but YOU are the one that brought it up. Typical troll, shown they are wrong so their response is "I never said that". Hilarious really.
Heh, anyone with basic English reading skills can go back and read my posts. I completely ignored your first post :)
Unless you are one of @midnightdragon18 alts, the person who brought up Kaio-ken and who I replied to, which would be pretty hilarious. lmao
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