It looks likehe was right about that writer on twitter just trying to get the Jean fans off his back when he said she was stronger than Xavier. Not only did all pre-existing canon disagree when comparing their feats and the constant claims that Xavier was the most powerful psi, but canon that came out this month affirms it, too.

In X-Men Red, we saw Jean get creamed by Nova in a psychic fight. Her teammates had to intervene to save her after she lost.

In X-Men Red, we saw Jean get clobbered by Nova in a psychic fight. Her teammates had to intervene to save her after she lost.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-EZN71rW8QNI/XBEyUv1OnLI/AAAAAAAAFyw/uAzJ68zl7AgL1VE2yRH-ht8umFV1K4hWwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO010.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nvA-AEIO66o/XBEyVoimMgI/AAAAAAAAFzA/cZYFHPvwk-YH_cVvLB3t3tFROkc_hKlOQCHMYCw/s1600/RCO012.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UnHeNw2AMek/XBEyWU8oyTI/AAAAAAAAFzI/9VHNuy3Zo8cpgtEpQADPZNCsB1vpYMpPwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO013.jpg

Keep in mind that Nova has no feats to compare with Xavier in the telepathic department.

Then, in Uncanny X-Men #4, when X-Man broadcasted a message to every mind on Earth, Jean was blown away by his power saying she didn't even know if Xavier could do it at his most powerful. In other words, from Jean's expression and everything, it is very clear that X-Man is much more powerful than she which has always been proven to be the case. Also, Xavier has feats to top what Nate Grey (X-Man) did in this issue.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lLuBfiktr8A/XAgjI7ze6mI/AAAAAAAAC9Y/gvScT4G21Xwk57xA0_Nap9J-AFsugeobgCHMYCw/s1600/RCO008.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-vkF9zMyqp7c/XAgjJXDXLxI/AAAAAAAAC9c/QlBQBuktyQALatJbodZZdJCjW7drhzMwwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO009.jpg

So, when Jean claimed to be equal to Nova in psi-power in previous issues of Red, she was obviously mistaken. PIS averted. There is no way Jean comes near either Xavier or Nova.

And then we get Storm being written down:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-6Cdp7CE2H5U/XAgjL8S_rFI/AAAAAAAAC90/L1U9RC02jLg5cFRsdgvKusj6FTgpW8RTACHMYCw/s1600/RCO015.jpg

Storm can sense disturbances in the earth's EM field, too, yet look at how she could not sense Magneto's affect on it when Lorna described his influence as a tidal wave. Look at what happens to Storm when Kitty, who was far, far, far away from Ororo drags a chunk of metal across the Earth's lines of force (that would be the EM field lines of force):

Kitty did this: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/HhYj0pApCtVf88ttpg7Pd1Ko0FwAACyWax51-mfq-lZc-FTCs7-n1KaIa1Hh1YJ01suq6m2aghtM=s1600

Reaction on Storm: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VRygQUx-pRtZSLKtYk97jmHWvDtUoO1W43xC44InFJxrRfxBhQe0XjOpd5Bzb3u57ZnARM3cjqtu=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/kRVWQs9_lQqGPENo72YFSQWLmVqmC_S5A1CK3O1zXr_4t-LG2N8t9slFRB9ml_GaTg4_Nr9hotHI=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/q-gdX8Dxl8-Xb91OBl-wUNZFpxn243i0z67wW3oVlX4dRF4Zn6Nn-6nfrgF2BbZMziZV27II8WXc=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/TcsAwPgUtddl1f5pJoOx--LPTKIM6HdtWA9guFkrXrr54VHdwqK8EzJvtKms_J1_9Lclhsgw2lTW=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/iCRGKU6yV7tjiBj37J4ExnTfPgGwse7GV4nRnTI-t7jnx2oabS4X7iQfX6Fa11VtnrZUEFQgfKyf=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/mmnC1fyAszxIsxzWGuCV7yhHBv5TyR0sZ9b3nRW_yqnebcBL4R6Dc5m7T9e3BR2PkXojF1qWKF3i=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Y8Rvmu0Y3zPnV_n45fADc7l_6sgWcZxiQzTpAvByEitWbVsnSfGhkGGbdRk4AqWvG63B77CzQwoj=s1600

This is an example of why I don't like to see Storm on a team with other elementals. Many aspects of her powers are ignored to give their powersets a niche to fill on the team. So, "no" on Storm being on teams with Polaris, Magneto, Iceman, Meggan, etc. What makes this instance worse is the writer had Storm ask Polaris for confirmation. Why not have Psylocke, or Jubilee, or any member of the team other than Ororo (who should have been able to sense it) ask Lorna if the writer wanted Polaris to volunteer the information? Better yet, when Polaris volunteered the info about Magneto's affect on the EM field, Psylocke could have been the one to ask, "Are you sure?", and then Storm supply the next response about Magneto having a tidal wave affect on the EM field.

WOW!!!! First off I want to say thank you for creating a thread dedicated to me. That is really flattering and is very sweet! I consider you to be one of the more knowledgeable Storm fans I've interacted with so creating the thread makes this even more humbling and kind. Thank you again.

That said, I have not been able to go through all the links you provided since they are not hyperlinks (I will try to do this when I get time later) but i would like to add that I don't believe Polaris was actually talking to Ororo or that it was her that asked her the question relating to the ripples in the EM. If you look at the panel she is actually facing Nightcrawler and the dialogue bubble actually appears to be pointed at him. So i think in this instance there is no issue (I originally thought the same until someone point this drawing detail out to people discussing this very thing on another forum).

Before this was explained to me I did remind people that Ororo was able to perceive EM energy to track Vindicator before Lorna showed she could do the same. In issue 121 Storm tracked Vindicator using his faint EM trail, whereas Lorna did the similar thing much in issue 146 of Uncanny:

Based upon this Polaris would never need to explain what she did to Ororo as she can perceive that energy as well. But again, she was looking at Nightcrawler so I think it's safe to assume that is what happened in this instance.

However, to your main point about her being on a team with other elementals I agree 100%. Ororo will never get her shine in a book that is consistently showing her spam lightning without any type of thought as to attacks that would be more effective against whoever she is fighting at that moment. Ororo in this Uncanny revival has done nothing but shoot lightning. I could think of far better uses of crowd control (such as when she BFR all the xmen in the WAP mini by way of a tornado) but the only thing she uses is lightning? Why is she shooting lightning at Magneto instead of going for a move that would be more effective such as heating the air around him or saturating the air so that he can't concentrate? maybe removing the air from his lungs or putting debris in his lungs? i mean these current writers are so non-creative when it comes to writing her it's just pathetic.

Nevertheless, thank you again for this. I hope we can continue this discussion in other areas where I am right about things other posters don't agree with (including her beating Iron Man, Doom, Juggernaut, Thor, Jean Grey, Wonder Woman and others I have made arguments against in the past) LOLOL

Thank you, thank you, thank you again my friend!

XOXOXOXOXOXO

Can't we tweet the writer to verify? Not that I disagree but getting a response from the writer will help too.

I dont see any harm but as she is talking she is looking at nightcrawler so yea

But it's possible that Polaris is looking around ( the planet's magnetic field ) so she doesn't need to face Storm to reply to her.

Oh Rut!! I forgot to mention, yes all this hype about Jean being stronger without the Phoenix was just that hype. She has been getting jobbed left and right, which honestly should be expected. Her powerset was never on the level of Phoenix and I'm not sure why writers have been saying that. Cassandra handed her arse to Jeanie, so i wholeheartedly believe the writer of the annual was just trying to get Jean fans off his back.

Think links I posted probably have to be copied and pasted on a new webpage in order for you to view them. That said, I would argue that Jean isn't being jobbed right now, but is being the way she's normally portrayed when she doesn't have the Phoenix Force. ;p

That said, just a few months ago, Storm hurt Magneto with a lightning bolt she did not filter through her body. Claremont wrote the story. I will, of course, argue that Magneto being able to hold off both Ororo and Lorna together was pure PIS, but that is what usually happens when Storm is pitted against him. While he is much stronger than Polaris, Storm is much more powerful than he. Then, on top of that, she has the kinds of attacks you mentioned that he cannot defend against. Storm vs. Magneto is not a convincing fight when all of the facts are examined unless Storm is curbstomping him.

Here is the Jean vs. Cassandra fight from New X-Men:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/3vVzxUlKtqa77F6Y3KmmSpqSWu8BL_xbslWuQVFHUt8Mmn6_eF_vYqj-B9Ydoyqjr5wpHjDg0_MB=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9tQQzaysVU5_kcV1hXqotfVll6MB4HM14TEABdBPHWnV-bHnmgdNucvYfM9zJFgeBYhfMLRolwA8=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/8yZ2S2awi3Yu7y_gQIFsf2MjKs75aFA35AlMIir2Sk0z2hma0Z7H6O18YRUV4iZydNh8RgXBlI0t=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/CIh2n42PSB9bqLyrUiD7ePhTLr5Pbob1VjA7grxJwcOzrxYBUHTld5aT-4DqNA157v-bdfM6y4dI=s1600

As you can see, Jean was nowhere near her telepathic match. It would have been TOTAL PIS for Jean to beat Nova in X-Men: Red. Jean's powers would've had to more than double since her death to win against Nova in a non-PIS one-on-one fight. Such a claim in not credible.

@butterflykyss: So which issue was it stated that Jean is more powerful without the Phoenix force/ Or was it through an interview or a tweet?

Meh, gabe>Nathan and hope>rachel=nate>>>>>>>jean>>>>>>>Scott.

No issue said this. Jean stated in the X-Men Red Annual that being possessed by the Phoenix Force made her hold her herself back out of fear of it taking over her:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lJFmNGXH-cg/Ww9TK2rTxzI/AAAAAAAAJVg/ubep3aOzB-8nZ5havFl-fEEXY3krqn-uQCHMYCw/s1600/RCO022.jpg

That claim was a HUGE lie.

In New X-Men #120, it was revealed that Jean was possessed by the Phoenix Force:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/kf4JlC5RqC-pvSKvYB5YGHhvCVfgJnLohS8RXlGR2QbQ2ZrTNx_9FsklYRDWznhGQb-oLcbL3ZJO=s1600

In New X-Men 125, it was stated right on panel that Jean was pushing her powers to their limits (and this was after it was revealed she was possessed by the PF five issues ago).

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/AkUiEvXfCVUzs1Arr-uQ_TZvfAWaXqVryzQtAzpm2Xnnmls5aGByfaRARdBfLUkdisBpESdjvGLQ=s1600

Then, in New X-Men #150, we see Jean, powered by the Phoenix Force, reconstruct herself, Wolverine, and other stuff after they crashed into the sun:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/JDW_hkGiUhjHmkq_meGJ0c9RQ8ufI9Q0Csq7EotuXYPsqyFgTnLnDkfcSbZLSvqFuFD7Pqyrehvv=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9b6I-fi6sShbn8_WjyuZYyzDyyulNO-4isE7BRmiOgbERXtGcAnK-YTkcHbPzHlcRVEcy98Rs0_T=s1600

Then, we see in New X-Men #154 Phoenix Force Jean Grey holding a baby universe in the palms of her hands and editing its timeline:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/VKUgAgkDSDb47xC0duWYUDLJoZWnH7FLYqQAjEFKUFfHBfbAU8GQavqRGNO1chr9Q1emk5zacT5K=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/UERC3QMMRBVyn03DbJUQrfKURaJJP35KEwkHnPfdOdi6vE2xq4tyTZUeWP1awxHyIaskNAyPY7nt=s1600

So, no, Jean Grey without the Phoenix Force is nowhere near as powerful as she is when she is possessed by it. These scans also prove that Jean did not hold herself back when she was possessed by the Phoenix Force. She wielded its full power. What Taylor wrote in that Annual was dead wrong about Jean holding herself back when she was possessed by the PF.

oh I totally agree. her base level powers isnt thus uber powerful character recent writers would like to convey her as being.

Dear god how did i get to the Storm forum....

any way.

2 things.

1- Cassandra Nova is a Mummumdra, a mass of psychic energy with a physical form, she's closer to the Shadowking then she is any other psychic which makes her appear so powerful, since Astral Psychics have always had an edge on regular psychics.

2-In their only confrontation Xavier was mind raped twice and then she walked right through him and the X-Men before forcibly switching bodies with him and proceeding to shoot him and go on to mind rape the Shiar Empire. Her next appearance has her mind screwing Emma Frost for 3/4 of Astonishing X-Men despite being in a box a feat which she basically repeated again with Rachel. At no point does Jean ever become influenced or is she ever over powered by Nova except for one blast which arguably was part of her plan. Regardless this is the best showing any telepath has had against Nova, and the only time Nova has been hesitant to directly confront another psychic.

1) Cassandra Nova was not written anywhere near as powerful in Red as she was under Morrison.

2) Jean Grey has no feats at all that puts her anywhere near Xavier. Also, when Nova overwhelmed Xavier, she caught him by surprise. At the end, he ejected Nova from his body while she was on Cerebra.

3) Nova has no feats whatsoever that compares with Shadow King. Trying to say she is his equal is more than a reach.

4) Emma Frost has much better feats than Jean Grey, which only proves that Nova was not written as powerfully in Red as she was under previous writers in other titles. Again, I repeat: I don't know how anybody can read Morrison's New X-Men and X-Men Red and think Nova was written equally powerful in both series. Morrison's Nova was downright scary, and she radiated power off the page that Taylor's Nova never even approached. Even Xavier was wary of Morrison's Nova.

5) We just saw in Uncanny X-Men 4 where Jean basically states both X-Man and Xavier to be way above her in power when X-Man broadcasted a message telepathically to everyone on Earth at the same time. He did this without straining or anything boosting his power. Let's compare that to Jean, who pushed her powers to their limits while using Searebro (which amplifies psi powers even better than either Cerebro or Cerebra) just to find Nova, who wasn't even trying to hide from her in X-Men Red issue 6:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gflSy9koZtc/W9z-eJEKK9I/AAAAAAABKbc/65P0is9gCYUOZO74cvJs7afddWHtnVKQQCHMYCw/s1600/RCO017.jpg

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-uLZKKCBjZ38/W9z-eVll8KI/AAAAAAABKbg/C2cl1RQ9NEke8LPcKIZXqjjaV5Aa721FACHMYCw/s1600/RCO018.jpg

I can recall a story where Xavier was talking to Callisto outdoors on the ruins of Genosha. He told her that he could scan the planet for Mr. Sinister in that instant if he wanted to and telepathically kill him. He said this without any Cerebro amplification device on him. That's much more impressive than the scans with Jean scanning for Nova when using something to boost her powers for a mere psychic search.

Now, getting back to X-Man's feat, which Jean acknowledged to be FAR above her power levels. Shadow King did even better than X-Man when he, SK, mind-controlled the entire planet's population at once. Mind control>>>>>psyhic communication. On top of that, when Shadow King mind controlled the entire planet, he stated Xavier to be the only psi who could have been a threat to him, but Xavier was indisposed at the time. In other words, Xavier is also on a comparable power level to what SK accomplished in that story. Then, in another story, we saw Xavier project his astral form a great distance to communicate with Galactus. During his psychic conversation with the world-devourer, he psi-linked 8 billion skrull minds scattered around the planet to Galactus's brain. He did all of this on his own without Cerebro.

Finally, much LESS impressive than all of these feats, we saw Xavier mindwipe Jean recently without any effort at all.

Jean Grey is nothing compared to Xavier without the Phoenix Force boosting her up.

So, I just saw on another board where Jean fans are arguing about what happened in the fight between Jean and Nova. It was very clear that Jean lost that fight badly. If she could have beaten Nova, she would have, and then simply injected the nannite into Nova's mind after subduing her telepathically. It's beyond desperate what they are saying over there. The most Jean could do was serve as a distraction for Nova here as Xavier's twin is much more powerful than Jean (though, in all honesty, if Nova were written at the levels Morrison gave her, Jean would not have even succeeded in being a distraction either. Nova swatted Jean like a fly under Morrison in TP combat while she fought with the other X-Men).

@stormcell: very true. were you on cbr? they are saying it was a part of her plan. I call bull.

@stormcell: 1: The only evidence you have of that is yourself. In Red Nova mind controlled people from hundreds of miles away. She completely dominated Rachel Grey. She disentegrated people with telekinesis. She wasn't even in the conversation anymore about psychics up until this point.
2. Read New X-Men again and understand how crazy that point is that you just tried to make. Xavier wasn't caught off guard. She was standing right in front of him and she blew past him and Jean before hooking herself to cerebro and switching bodies. The entire Nova plot was resolved because Jean took his entire mind into hers and then divided him around the world and rigged him to reassemble. And when Jean and Xavier talk about how she did it, he flat out said it was impossible and declared he had nothing else to teach her as a result.
3. No one said she was Shadowkings equal or compared there feats. But remember that the only thing that makes Shadowking as strong as he is is the fact that he is a psionic ghost who lives on the astral plane. We've seen countless times that psychic beings like Maddie Pryor, Shadow King, Elias Bogan and Nova are always stronger in indirect ways then average psychics but are limited in their abilities.
4. You can't use your own fear or intimidation as statements of feat. A new villain was intimidating in her first appearance but in her fourth didn't really scare you. Ok.... but meanwhile Rachel who has better power feats then Emma, who has been stated to be stronger then Emma, who recently was boosted in her own power was instantly under Nova's control while Jean repeatedly fought off Nova's TP.
5. First Jean didn't even know who she was looking for. She built Searebro so she could use it to find some person who was behind the attack. She had no idea who or what she was looking for. Secondly where do you get that she pushed herself to her limit? I don't even have to look to know that they haven't implied anything as crazy as Jean straining in a Cerebro feat since her return. Third show me a scan of Xavier talking to 7 billion people at once. There's no question X-Man is stronger then Jean. But to imply that because she named the only other telepath worth mentioning as being capable of this feat only implies that she holds the person who taught her in such a high regard.

It's long been established by fans that Jean lacks feats in many areas. But as far as telepaths go she is the only person with statements from Xavier, Emma and now Nova that she is stronger then Xavier, Emma and Rachel. Whatever your trying to do by reaching for this lowball you need to recognize that your arguing against panel despite multiple sources putting you as wrong.

@pyrofn@marvelfan1992@lordofallhumans tagging out for now.

1) Red Nova mind controlled people via nannites from hundreds of miles away, IIRC.

2) Nova took Xavier down with a telekinetic burst before he could shut her down. Notice how Xavier tells Jean to stay back because Nova's mind is a trap. He then states that he can shut her down. In other words, he's saying that while Nova is far beyond Jean, he can take down his psychic twin. At that point, Nova strikes first with a TK attack before Xavier can get his TP assault off. Then, she easily dismantles Jean telepathically while taking down Cyclops. In other words, Xavier>>>>>>Nova>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jean.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/3vVzxUlKtqa77F6Y3KmmSpqSWu8BL_xbslWuQVFHUt8Mmn6_eF_vYqj-B9Ydoyqjr5wpHjDg0_MB=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/9tQQzaysVU5_kcV1hXqotfVll6MB4HM14TEABdBPHWnV-bHnmgdNucvYfM9zJFgeBYhfMLRolwA8=s1600

Then, she goes for Cerebra to boost her powers so she can plant her psyche in Xavier's body:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Bw-QrkWq_ba2Wrj5K54j7NC76t9SMlTBcpUVTIMsjzqjJU0mF60DoG2DksMKd2qc5kYCx7SVnv9D=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/0dd_84oku5zNHffUdAAvAHD4-zGE4ef2cPj3VlY2KuFoeIVY-CCM5kLJbpM4i0z4WJPLsTk16GOo=s1600

So, she never overpowered Xavier in this issue until she got the Cerebra boost.

3) Xavier is stronger than Pryor, and he rivals Bogan and Shadow King in power (though, SK can at times dwarf Xavier). Your statement is not always true because of the Xavier factor. He's a strong enough psi to match psychic beings in power. Jean is nowhere close to that.

4) Rachel is nowhere near Emma in terms of power. Not only that, but Rachel loses almost every psychic fight she has. Heck, even Mesmero just got through controlling her mind in X-Men: Gold. She's also been taken over by Selene and lost to Selene three times, she got taken over by a dinosaur telepath, Martha got the better of her in "Wolverine and the X-Men", Bogan easily possessed her and locked her own persona down in her own body, Emma beat her, and then she was a gnat compared to Exodus who easily fought her off while battling like five or six other X-Men at the same time. Meanwhile, Emma was able to block out Exodus and Sinister at the same time telepathically from a great distance away.

5) She was pushing her powers to the limit. Read what she was saying while she was scanning for Nova with Searebro:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gflSy9koZtc/W9z-eJEKK9I/AAAAAAABKbc/65P0is9gCYUOZO74cvJs7afddWHtnVKQQCHMYCw/s1600/RCO017.jpg

That was going along with the theme of what she claimed in X-Men Red Annual which I already proved was a lie:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-lJFmNGXH-cg/Ww9TK2rTxzI/AAAAAAAAJVg/ubep3aOzB-8nZ5havFl-fEEXY3krqn-uQCHMYCw/s1600/RCO022.jpg

As for Xavier? Here it goes:

X-Men #90: Xavier projects his astral form a great distance to talk to Galactus:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/NhSlE6rAhD4fXZRRal-ILA4YJ8IOEzvcjv0wj_TzmvZE6CP4OQ2UbXK9S-TBuAwGW2AohDQtilMD5Q=s1600

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/xULEBCUPWYBSO2EU26uG7GFZUioaCaUwCFO750rNPwQG0-KWAZJ-jSQRZDDtKECuUhC1RAZVls7lVQ=s1600

Note in the second scan how it states there are 8 billion skrulls on the planet. Now, after establishing contact with Galactus despite the distance, Xavier channels all of the feelings of every skrull on the planet to Galactus. So, he connects with all 8 billion minds and shows Galactus their collective thoughts and feelings:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/ci8FWW2fHyGDMGELDlZ5iD7ejAR33ODqTgoYVHXVXINjXfw_GEVj6QxyGtHaK6fnUHToG-wOVFSn6A=s1600

This is MUCH more impressive than merely projecting a message in those minds.

6) As far as Jean splitting Xavier's mind into a million different people, she was boosted by both the Phoenix Force AND Cerebra when she pulled that off. Therefore, the feat doesn't count. Jean is only more powerful than Xavier when she is hosting the Phoenix Force. Without it, she is a joke compared to him. Furthermore, there is loads of PIS where Jean is concerned. Emma has more powerful feats than Jean and also stalemates or defeats telepaths that beat Jean in psychic combat.

@koays: Why bother?

because of me? :)

and because of Cyclops/Storm rivalry

@theinsufferable: Eh, they're doing that thing again where they make a claim and then look for evidence to back up the claim. "The sky is purple. Oh look a grape. Seems like I've proven my point"

@koays:

@stormcell: 1. You dont read? She called Rachel and the soldiers with telepathy from Genosha.

2. No. He tells her that her mind is a trap and he thinks he can shut down her motor function. Meaning he'd already realized reaching into her mind was dangerous from either what she did to him in their first encounter or from scanning her in that moment. Regardless he got handled without doing anything and never lost conciousness before she walked into Cerebra and body swapped him. Jean pulled herself together pretty quick and then went after Nova.

3. You cant prove Xavier is stronger then Pryor. Shes had powers 3 times. The first was Phoenix amped TP that Jean beat. The second was her channeling X-Mans power and third time she was as a psighost who got the drop on Emma the same way Shadowking gets the drop on everyone he fights. Aside from his odd rivalry with Psylocke, Shadow King doesnt fight one v one with anyone and when he does he always loses. He's essential an Omega class psychic entity who specializes in possession but has crap stats in actual combat.

4. Mesmero has mind controlled the Phoenix and Phoenix host twice. We all laugh about it because hes a nobody villain, but he has psychic feats to justify his beating Rachel. Rachel has oneshotted Quire, Psylocke and Xavier Jr. She has two on panel conversations including one with Emma and one with Xavier that put her as stronger then Emma Frost. Martha's mutant power along with telepathy is to turn off mutant powers, and the Saurian telepath repeatedly admitted that he surprised Rachel and that why he was able to trick her. Her being more powerful was a plot point in their plan since it's why SHE was being used to mindrape Storm in that arc and not him. Emma's only power feat to directly compare against Rachel is the Exodus fight where she stalemated Exodus for a short time for Dust to K.O. her. He flat out says she cant keep this up. Rachel was blocking his powers from effecting the rest of the team while also putting blocks in his mind which is also said on panel. It's essentially the same feat except Emma was focused on distracting and concealing while Rachel was putting up blocks and defending. Bogan also possessed Emma. There are no feats that put Emma over current Rachel.

5. I know what she was looking for, thats why I told you she wasn't looking for Nova. Where does it say that Jean was using all of her power? Jean says shes looking for the person responsible for all the hatred in the world. She has no clue who or what shes looking for, implying that what shes about to attempt is to scan every mind looking for someone or something that might be responsible or know something about the attack.

Xaviers feat with the Skrulls is his highest end feat. Period. And it's all in line with his abilities to read the minds of the planet. He through feelings using great effort though which is still very different then casually speaking into minds of an entire planet at once. The only other person on that scale is Cable.

@theinsufferable: They only even have a Jean thread because Jean is leading a team and they hate everyone who leads the X-men or is in charge and not named "YaaaaasssssQuueeeen".

I forgot to address this because what you said here is untrue.

1) Nova NEVER feared Jean as a telepath. Nova was afraid of Jean and their team for what they represented: compassion. She was afraid of being wrong and lacking or less than.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-fcuqZQoHhrY/W9BpGTjlr3I/AAAAAAAAKOQ/b3EZue-oI9IHQ5H1dte2JHS8T6CvMD9pACHMYCw/s1600/RCO021.jpg

2) This was nowhere near the best showing any telepath had against Nova. Xavier beat Nova down badly in New X-Men...and this is when Nova's powers were enhanced tenfold by Cerebra:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Rzs7KmyB3DjWxqWF66aOa_3AV9V1tBKW9qZC-SFN7JXnpNAm8y81_T138Za9vXd4kJs2kFXk1WnZ=s1600

@stormcell: 1. Again, prove your point. Why didn't Nova just control Jean the way she has Emma and Rachel? Yes she didn't like what they represented, no that has nothing to do with why Nova couldn't get pass Jean's defenses and why she sent 100 people between her and Jean.

2. He didn't do a dam thing. Jean rigged his mind to return to his body which pushed Nova out. Even Xavier was surprised he was back. And even then she was still actively moving until Emma tricked her into her body. The only thing close to a fair exchange they had was when Nova woke up in the tank and he had time to tell everyone to get ready.

It's actually quite simple. Jean ain't this uber powerful being without the Phoenix. Could not read typhoid mary mind:

could read a couple of hounds infected by some French brats mind:

and of course when x mind wiped her with so much ease. bottom line. jean is powerful but not as powerful as Phoenix and I'm not sure why marvel would try to sale her in that manner.

@koays: I don’t think argueing against these guys is worthwhile. I mean Rachel is weaker than Emma Frost? Jean isn’t an uber telepath without the Phoenix? Emma has better feats than Jean(maybe in skill but definitely not in power)? That’s not even debatable, those things are just plain wrong.

@elpendejo: The entire Jean fandom is reeling from how lame the Red ending was. We need to stand up and fight for our pride and for actual facts and evidence.

@stormcell: New X-Men issue 126. Read a comic before you start calling people out. The plan is explained before and then again by Xavier in 128 I which he says that she splintered his mind and then reclaimed it.

@koays: why was it lame if it showed jean getting the best of nova???

@butterflykyss: 1) Never said it showed that....

2) Gaby saved the day. Which is exactly what readers sarcastically guessed would happen in the end before issue 9 came out.

1) Different writer in the Emma instance. Also, it was a subtle attack that Nova pulled on Emma when she wasn't expecting it. The fact is, Jean has NEVER been a match for Nova or anywhere near Nova's power levels without the PF. She lost badly everytime she took Nova on. Why do you think Jean wore a Magneto helmet? She wore it because she knew she was no match for Nova which the villainess proved when they fought.

2) Jean didn't rig Xavier's mind. Nowhere in the story was that stated. You are making stuff up, as usual. All Jean did was take Xavier's mind and split it into the million mutant minds on the planet. Not to mention when she did this, she was boosted by Cerebra, which enhances your psi powers tenfold, PLUS the Phoenix Force. So, what happened was when Nova connected with the one million mutant minds around the planet, she found Xavier waiting for her who tore her mind to shreds. Phoenix Force Jean Grey didn't rig anything except put Xavier in a spot where he could attack Nova when the evil twin made her move.

Again, it was revealed early on in the series that Xavier could stop Nova telepathically. We saw this when Xavier told Jean to stay back beyond Nova was FAR FAR FAR beyond her and said that he would shut her down. Nova had to strike Xavier with a physical TK assault before Xavier enacted his mental assault on her mind.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/3vVzxUlKtqa77F6Y3KmmSpqSWu8BL_xbslWuQVFHUt8Mmn6_eF_vYqj-B9Ydoyqjr5wpHjDg0_MB=s1600

Xavier>>>Nova>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Jean

1) She affected them with nannites first, right? Besides, this doesn't put Nova anywhere near Xavier as Xavier has always been established as being a much more powerful telepath than his psychic twin.

2) Nova TK blasted Xavier before he pulled his attack. Period. He thought he could take her psychically, but knew she was too much for Jean. The issue clearly established Jean to be no match for Nova, and that was the case again in X-Men Red.

3) Xavier is MUCH stronger than Pryor. You can't show me any feats Pryor pulled that puts her anywhere near Xavier's high end feats. This is pure desperation on your part.

4) Shadow King doesn't always get the drop on everyone he fights. I've seen Shadow King inhabiting the body of a dying man who had to be hooked up to a machine in order to live. Even with this handicap, he was able to reach across the ocean and wage psychic warfare against Xavier in Colossus's mind. Xavier was unable to beat Shadow King on his own and had to join with Peter's willpower to expel the king from his mind. Also, Emma Frost was able to beat Martha while Rachel could not. Emma Frost was able to fight off the combined telepathy of Exodus and Sinister while Rachel couldn't even come close to taking Exodus eventhough he was fighting a bunch of other X-Men while fighting off her TP attacks. Furthermore, when Exodus fought Emma in the instance you are talking about, he was unable to use any of his powers to fight any other foes. As I just showed, such was not the case with Rachel.

5) Regarding Mesmero taking over Phoenix Jean, he only managed that because he got the drop on her. However, whenever he tried a perverted move on her, she started to break out of it. In other words, she was clearly much more powerful than he, so it was the advantage of surprise that gave him the ability to control her to a limited extent like that. In Rachel's case, he beat her time and again.

6) Xavier was also able to battle the Dark Phoenix on all the infinite planes of existence at the same time. Furthermore, when Shadow King mind controlled the planet, he clearly stated in the issue that Xavier was the only psi who could have been a threat to him. In other words, Xavier is on a comparable level to where he could have mind controlled the Earth's population as well.

@koays: I don’t mind that Jean lost, but the issue was lame. They should have shown the fight, it would’ve been epic. But honestly I think people are taking this too far. I mean losing to nova doesn’t make Jean any less of a rival to Xavier.

That's exactly what I said. She split Xavier's mind into the other mutant minds on the planet. This way, when Nova used Cerebra to boost her powers tenfold to enter into and control all mutant minds, she found Xavier waiting for her, who proceeded to tear her mind apart. This clearly shows Xavier to be more powerful than Nova. Jean, aided by the Phoenix Force and Cerebra, didn't do anything except put Xavier's mind in a spot where he could fight Nova himself.

Xavier beat Nova while Nova was boosted tenfold by Cerebra. Jean lost badly to Nova everytime they fought. Jean is nowhere near Xavier without the Phoenix Force boosting her up.

@koays: 1. I know. i just seen fans of jean argue that she was able to go toe to toe with Nova and that she played like she was hurt so that nova would let her guard down.

2. you dont see it was a team effort as opposed to everyone working together?

@koays For the record, here is the scan again where Xavier tore Nova's mind apart:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/Rzs7KmyB3DjWxqWF66aOa_3AV9V1tBKW9qZC-SFN7JXnpNAm8y81_T138Za9vXd4kJs2kFXk1WnZ=s1600

If you can't click on it, just cut and paste the link onto a new webpage.

Now, onto what the scan shows:

1) Nova got onto Cerebra, which boosted her powers tenfold, to enter into the minds of every mutant on Earth to make them kill each other.

2) She gets on there, enters everyone's mind and finds Charles waiting for her, or did the Jean fans miss the panel where Nova says, "Hello! All of you mutants out there. It's time to become extinct. Can you feel me inside your head? CHARLES?"

3) So, again, she got on the Cerebra, boosted her powers tenfold, and found Xavier waiting for her, who proceeded to shred her mind.

Moving on...

This is all Jean did beforehand:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/4MtwlqDWAtRG32l0SGRJ3DU-zx_VDN1WxABoaYqb3pEy6mgAyz6vuaaHDkie7SFYg4z0noZDWCRm=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/3CiTqlNPto8msiGHBZy-etEdDGnLhctfyt7qr5av46ITGyNC4XE13GCYZrMoaV6z5yJlv0bugcMI=s1600

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/vG8TleOpLkP-X1yCzDIVkpF32YYBVRe_Eh7ZByWLdzl-Wsa_RbwRJEv1dGWRsXeOwnH9O1FfBg-z=s1600

So, again, Jean didn't do a blasted thing except, again, put Xavier's mind in a place where he could fight Nova himself when she connected with every mutant mind on Earth...that place being in the psyches of the mutant population. Once Jean did that, it was Xavier vs. Nova, and Xavier creamed her badly.

@stormcell: Where has Xavier been stated to be more powerful then Nova?

He told Jean to pull back because her mind was a trap. Which considering how the last time he reached out an encountered her he got a taste of it we could just as easily say is an experience feat.

Maddie stomped Jean and X-Man at once because she was again channeling Nates power....

Emma wasn't fighting Sinister and Exodus. Sinister was protecting the minds of the marauders. Exodus even comments that it's taking everything she has to hold him off.

Your comparing Phoenix Jean, to non Phoenix Rachel....ok, that makes sense.

Shadowking has been defeated by pure will power and most frequently by psylocke. You cant compare Astral battles to anything else telepathically with him because hes channeling the power of the Astral plane. The thing that gives all psychics their powers. That's what makes him so powerful. Otherwise it wouldn't make sense that a guy that died 40plus years ago in a tp battle with a novice Xavier, would be able to beat Xavier in almost every confrontation. Theyve had since.

Battling Dark Phoenix is nice. But he had Jean's help. And the very next time he came close to TPing with the Phoenix force in Excalbiur it not only overwhelmed him but made him think a few minutes had passed when it had been mindscrewing him for hours. The time after that it had him scared to enter Jean's mind I case he was incinerated.....see how easy it is to apply non relevant points in an attempt to low ball? It's not hard at all.

@stormcell: Well unlike some fans, I can admit when I’m wrong. Still, i think we can at least agree that Jean’s more powerful than Emma, unless the feats you were referring to were skill feats. If that’s the case, I’d agree.

Emma is much more powerful than non-Phoenix Jean if you compare their feats. Jean doesn't come close to Emma.

1) Xavier creamed Nova when she boosted her powers with Cerebra and connected with every mutant mind on the planet only to find Xavier waiting for her. I've posted this scan several times.

2) And after that, she disconnected herself from Nate. Furthermore, Xavier has feats more powerful than Nate Grey save for when Nate became Shaman X-Man.

3) Emma and Exodus crossed swords twice. The first time, it happened as you said. Emma and Exodus battled each other and neither of them were able to attack anyone else since it took everything each of them had to try and win against the other. However, the second time they fought, Emma was written much stronger. The X-Men had gone to confront Exodus, Sinister, and their forces. Emma stayed behind. Eventhough she was separated from the X-Men by a huge distance, she was able to comfortably sit on a couch and shield the X-Men's minds from the combined psi-powers of Exodus and Sinister. When Rachel fought Exodus, he was able to fight her telepathically and still fight several other X-Men at the same time. By the way, everytime Jean crossed Exodus's past, she was always a joke, and he effortlessly overpowered her.

Also, I don't care enough about either Rachel or Jean to debate who is the stronger of the two. Personally, without either of them being possessed by the Phoenix Force, I think Rachel comes across as a stronger telekinetic than Jean while Jean may be the more powerful telepath between the two. You may agree or disagree, but I don't care to discuss it further.

4) Shadow King has been written all over the place since the 2000s. We saw in Nightcrawler issue 10 that Psylocke and Bloody Bess combined could not even hope to defeat him telepathically.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ABueIBZzRVkmi5kzRHjM0DvwqWlGEAmSO993kamc_X-qdw8r8zRWkiWcXiFp0DoeRrSosfvTv_PD=s1600

But, from what I have read from posters, Shadow King has very inconsistent showings. That said, 80s/90s Shadow King, along with some of his showings since the 2000s, is the ultimate psi save for the occassional Phoenix Force host and the power levels Legion has in some stories. One more thing, Shadow King is an astral demon birthed from the first nightmare. He's not just some old guy who died 40 years ago. He's much older than that, and not human.

5) You are taking that whole thing Xavier said in the Dark Phoenix fight completely out of context.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/qoUhcIMZFw-Cf9gmOIkti0TdOxLD_J0khA6a3-zbBiwDPCqqhsNb7X2b2JDzy2EcQQhiUBG88Syu=s1600

Xavier: "Would have lost, but I sensed Jean fighting her Phoenix self, helping me."

So, Xavier only sensed Jean fighting the Phoenix persona. She did not boost his powers. Jean's humanity acted as a tempering agent on Phoenix's powers when it created a clone of her body and borrowed a piece of her soul to mimick her personality, memories, etc, and essentially take her place. Xavier's powers were not boosted by any stretch of the imagination. In other words, Jean's persona was trying to act as a dampner on Phoenix's power level using her human compassion and humanity. This means that Xavier battled Dark Phoenix on all the infinite planes of existence completely under his own power. That is VERY impressive. However, him coming out the victor in the fight rather than the loser was because Jean's persona was holding back a portion of Phoenix's powers.

Context, my friend. Everything has to be kept in context.

I never said Xavier could defeat the Dark Phoenix. He can't. I only use this fight to show Xavier being a strong enough psi to wage psychic warfare on all the planes of existence simultaneously.

Here is a scan talking about how Phoenix's powers were tempered by Jean's humanity, but that temperance was gone when she became Dark Phoenix:

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/fh6yre7sOLHxrqpOtIOBdO1gW-ISUqKElSuvKqxzH9pvRvTwNVx0kJNz8EL9qf2L7iSWbu1zW5h7=s1600

So, when Dark Phoenix battled Xavier, that humanity tried to reassert in Dark Phoenix. It was that inner turmoil between the humanity of Jean's soul and the all-consuming lust of the Dark Phoenix that enabled Xavier to win. The Dark Phoenix was divided within itself during its struggle with Xavier.

@stormcell: If you’re taking about 70s and 80s Jean, Emma definitely. Early 90s Jean, debatable. Late 90s to now, it’s no contest. She’s pretty much shown that she’s powerful enough to posses and handle Emma’s mental defenses in the Jean grey solos. Emma’s also stated that currently Jean’s more powerful than her.

Emma was able to beat Charles III when Jean could not in the same exact issue, plus Emma has better feats. I don't take anything the comics say about Jean's power levels being "more powerful than so-and-so" or her being "this powerful" or "that powerful" seriously since she doesn't have the showings to back it up without the Phoenix Force boosting her.

@stormcell: Oh and the fight with sinister and exodus fame first. However she was only blocking Sinister’s telepathy. Nightcrawler teleported exodus out of the fight. And koays was right, she would have lost against exodus had the fight continued. In fact I don’t even think the fight should count as a feat or as a stalemate for Emma at all. From what @koays says about Rachel vs Exodus, I think Rachel did better.

Pure desperation to say Emma would have lost to Exodus. That said, by virtue of the fact that Exodus could fight like 5 or 6 other X-Men while fending off Rachel's TP assault whereas he could not fight anyone while fighting Emma proves that Rachel doesn't come close to Emma.

@stormcell: It’s honestly not. Emma’s past showings and exodus’ past and future showings don’t support her winning at all. It took charles, Jean, and the other avengers to take him down and during legacy Exodus almost beat Xavier. Also, why do you think Emma had dust with her? She couldn’t beat him by herself, exodus and Emma knew that. Also, Charles III? Do you mean Charles alternate timeline son? Jean Grey never went up against him unless ,you’re talking about teen Jean.

they just quoted Xavier saying he wouldve lost if not for Jean fighting Phoenix and said context. It's an anti feat, it doesnt matter if he said he wouldve lost except the Phoenix left its toaster on the point stands that it means if the exact same situation arose he would lose if not for the same circumstances.

@Elpendejo let's go, we've got to return to the Nest. The uninformed on this board are beginning to close in on us.

@stormcell: Stop arguing against panel. That is debating 101. Unless you can prove something is inaccurate in the source material then you cant just say it wouldnt have happened. LOOK at the actual issues insteated of posting links.

@koays: They May have won the battle, but like the Phoenix, we will or may not come back. Depends on if we feel like it.