Goku vs Naruto, equalized stats

Well shit. My bad, idk why i was thinking kami when i meant roshi.

Still does not change the point that, paladin claims the moon was only Busted once by piccolo.

Totally my bad for mixing up names, Meant master Roshi.

My bad, " Kame" Not "kami" spelt that wrong. or Master Roshi With the English spelling of the name.

My original point still stands that, The moon was bust more then once and it was not ONLY by piccolo (as dark paladin stated) but also by Kame/master roshi AKA "jackie Chun" during the world tournament.

You all can remember all this now, but nobody can point out paladins lack of knowledge claiming Piccolo was the only one to ever bust the moon. Lmao.

Wow....

That's gotta be embarrassing.

Roshi and Kami are two completely different people.

@karsa_toblakai said:

@thedarkpaladin said:

@great_black_star said:

@karsa_toblakai: Don't bother bro, debating with paladin is like debating with a wall. He has such a consistent record

Come back when you have an argument.

@thedarkpaladin said:

@karsa_toblakai said:

@thedarkpaladin:

Just to show how ignorant you are about the character you are supporting in this discussion. Kami DID blow up the moon. As soon as i am home will upload some hand taken pictures of my own personal manga volume showing it. As i am on my cell phone at the moment

Kami never blew up the moon. Please find those pictures that don't exist, because it's pretty clear from your first post towards me that you have never actually read the manga. I would be surprised if you actually read Naruto, to be honest.

Good Fight Bro. Sucks to realize how ignorant you can be isn't it. Try to tell me I have never read the series, when i have every volume of both series.

But nice try. Your "debate" skills only work if you have actually seen/read the series.

Well, you just proved you don't know the difference between Kami and Muten Roshi. Lol

So considering how you just made a complete and utter fool of yourself, even more so than the guy who claimed that Sage Mode increases your stats 100 fold, i'll leave you with this:

like i also just said, i meant "kame" not kami. Meaning master roshi.

but hey jump on me for a spelling mistake, not on paladin for claiming 100% false information. but you know he must be right, Piccolo was the only one still to ever blow up the moon.

He never made that claim. You said Kami blew up the moon. He said that is false. That's all.

@houseshm said:

mis match

kid goku could win easily forget about adult goku

goku is much more versatile and a fighter by birth than naruto

He can learn techniques while fighting and seeing them once and improving them in battle

he was even after to improve jackie chun afterimage while fighting him, naruto is severly outclassed here

that is why he is known as one of the best martial artist in fiction

naruto stands no chance here, the only outcome is dead naruto no matter how much you weaken goku. Anyone who says otherwise is clueless

"you're Kamesennin"

god forbid you know, i switch up a single letter right?

Point still stands that it was an ass pull From Dragon ball. that a character is shown to be able to blow up the moon, which is an insane amount of DC. based on that kami is moon busting+ level lol. he could theoretically solo half the anime versus out there. if not all other then DBZ verse.

But ill concede i spelt it kami and that was my bad to begin with.

@karsa_toblakai:

You all can remember all this now, but nobody can point out paladins lack of knowledge claiming Piccolo was the only one to ever bust the moon. Lmao.

Save what little self respect you have left and just log off...

@precrisisbardock: the sage mode thing doesn't have to be a 1hko, it would still be effective and the damage would add up over the course of the fight. Naruto really hasn't been in a situation where he needed to use that feature of sage mode since the pain fight. Also since you originally brought up the after image thing, when was the last time goku actually used that outside of dragonball.

As far as sensing intentions, you almost make it sound like goku is reading minds. It's not as effective as that. All of the Naruto clones have their own will. Naruto doesn't micromanage control each of them. Goku would not be able to find the real Naruto. Under normal circumstances, goku's only advantage is superior stats. Without that, there's simply no way he can win. Equal stats plus sage precog gives Naruto a very clear advantage here. With precog, he's able to react to people that are actually faster than him like the scene with the edo third raikage. If goku is equal to him then goku surely won't be able to do anything.

If stats are equalized, then what's stopping Naruto from doing a rasenshuriken up close? It damages your cells, so you have to be durable with your insides too, and I don't think Goku's durable on the inside. Naruto also has a good healing factor, too. And he has sealing. And lava. And sexy jutsu (this should work considering Goku has a wife and two kids).

But he's never used it more than once even when he fought pain. Goku uses it all the time in fights.

Goku can sense Naruto's intentions of staying back, letting the clones attack him. Naruto's precog is so slight it won't matter and it won't offset the drastic skill gap. Kaioken just seals the deal.

Goku can just use Instant Transmission to dodge Rasenshuriken.

Gallery

Goku is a fighter. Naruto is a Ninja. Naruto is not afraid to use cheap tricks. With equal power Naruto is just way too versatile for Goku to handle. Only ways i could see Goku winning is a lucky shot with kaioken or very tactical use of instant transmission -> Goku has not showed good enough feats on the series besides BFR (took Cell to king kais planet) which i assume is not allowed. I mean technically Goku could just teleport Naruto to outerspace and teleport himself back and Naruto would die horribly. But he doesnt do this kind of things because its in character.

This is really a simple fight. Destructo disc GG. Stop over complicating it.

@precrisisbardock: I don't think that was literally the after image technique in that scan; goku was using the triple kaioken, so his stats were higher than vegeta's at the time. It was just pure speed.

And I'm pretty sure op meant to keep stats equal regardless of any abilities. Therefore, kaioken shouldn't give goku any type of a boost. Arguing the difference between techniques and transformations is really just semantics.

Also, who says the real Naruto will hang back and not participate? Under these conditions he can fight evenly with goku; no need for him to hang back. With stats equal, precog tips the scales in Naruto's favor. Even if goku's h2h is better, what puts him so far above Naruto? Dragonball had a focus on martial arts, but that went out the window with dbz and power levels became everything. Not sure why you say goku is so far above Naruto, but with precog it literally won't matter. Naruto will more than be able to keep up with him.

Goku

How is it just pure speed - when it shows him doing the afterimage.

Kaioken is an amp for a heartbeat though, it isn't a transformation.

Precog doesn't have any notable feats to put it above the massive martial arts skill gap between these two guys.

Lol Goku Solar Flare then Kamehameha x10 gg

Clones dogpile Goku

Goku then tosses one casual ki blast with a large radius that destroys them all. The real Naruto has wasted a lot of energy on these clones and is now at a larger disadvantage than before.

umm Naruto fought and was equal to Rock Lee with and without weight at the exams even 2nd gate. so how was he rubbish at the academy?

Naruto got one-shotted by Lee at the beginning of the Chunin Exams, and that is the only time they ever fought in the manga.

agreed.

The big thing is, does naruto get his amp from Sot6p? I know stats are still equalized, but with truth seeking balls and the staff's give naruto an even bigger advantage of having weapons too, on top of kanai's, shurikens, paper bombs(though at their levels i don't see a small bomb hurting goku much at all) etc.

only weapon i see doing anything would be the balls themselves.

goku's biggest disadvantage would be that, other then his various ki blasts, he's a primarily a physical fighter and naruto has shown ways to work around physical fighting. from put right deception(think neji fight) to finding ways to work around his opponents strengths and weaknesses (pain fight/gaara fight).

He has constantly faced opponents who had major speed/strength/intellectual advantages over him. If everything is equalized, goku won't have these.

@precrisisbardock holy s**t you are alive!!1

I only go MIA.

@chair-sama: Truth Orbs were banned in the OP

- and even if they weren't physical strength can dominate them.

Yeah, I haven't see you since the old Mafia days. I am retired myself from debating anyway and just pop out now and then to read some threads, sadly, nowadays I feel sick when reading threads, the site went to hell.

And I got a new girl, she is a better use of my time and energy than debating people over fictional characters so I am not debating any more.

@purple_d_dragon: Yeah I had a new girl for those few months, it didn't work out haha so now I was pondering coming back to chill here. Good for you though, it is a better alternative man :)

@precrisisbardock: I thought you were gone. Where have you been all this time?

The Circle of life. and well, this one is a keeper, so I ain't gonna mess up.

@josephgomes619: In real life, had to put forth focus into other things.

@purple_d_dragon: Just put thought into every action you make, it's exhausting but rewarding, prevents regrets dude.

After reading this whole thread, I'd say Naruto had the best arguments put forth. He wins.

@precrisisbardock: Thanks Man, I appreciate it, and I will. :)

How does he win?

This scan erases any doubt that Naruto's precog won't bridge the skill gap. .

Goku stomps using feats and logic

learns any technique while watching once and improves them- basically a martial arts prodigy =goku

vs

naruto-kid who failed ninja school multiple times and cant never learn simple techniques after multiple tries=loses badly

=Goku stomps

naruto fans who make clone argument dont realize goku can make clones too and was doing that before naruto was even born?

please lock

@houseshm: Can I have some salt for my fries?

@houseshm: Goku can't make clones.

Topkek

@precrisisbardock: how is that scan in post 638 a bad showing for Naruto's precog? It's a reaction to a teleporter. Yeah, goku can do that too with IT, but it's not like sasuke one shot Naruto right there. Naruto still predicted everything. Also, Naruto's sensing allowed him to keep up with the much faster edo third raikage and he was able to fight madara's limbo with sensing alone. Don't know why you're downplaying the precog/sensing. Also, the difference is still that goku won't know which clone is real as I've told you before. Unless goku is going to use IT and attack each of the clones one by one, I don't see how that scan really helps your case. Also, how often has goku used IT in battle? I only recall the IT kamehameha combo against cell, yet you act like goku is going to spam it here in character. Feel free to remind me of more scenarios since I really don't remember any others.

@vermillion0831: I never said Goku was going to spam IT.

Naruto just dodged Raikage's attack at the last second, no evidence of precog being used here, he just baited Raikage. There's evidence of increased reaction but not precognition.

He could fight Madara's limbo because he could sense where it was. It's like arguin that he can fight with his eyes closed - how does that help him here?

He won't know what clone is real, but he can sense the intention of the real Naruto staying back (which he does sometimes) and he can use superior skill to dodge the clones and one shot pop them until he finds the real Naruto. Or he can use Aoe attacks to pop them while searching out the real one.

@precrisisbardock: The overall point of the raikage thing is he's reacting to someone much much faster. His sensing/precog are always active in sage mode no? Plus the sasuke scene you posted is still a good precog feat. Unless you're saying goku will use IT to get the drop on Naruto, I really don't see why you posted it. Plus, even though Naruto got hit by sasuke he still predicted the attack.

You're really oversimplifying how goku will deal with the clones. Most of the time when Naruto's clones get fodderized, it's because Naruto is fighting someone who vastly out stats him. That's not the case here. You act as though goku will just mow right through a 1000+ clones and nothing suggests he could. With the exception of durability, the clones are just as fast and strong as he is. Who's to say the clones will easily get popped by a ki blast or aoe blast? You act as though the clones can't dodge anything; remember they are just as fast and strong as Goku here. It's just a matter of time before he gets worn down by the barrage of clones and their attacks.

And again, he literally won't be able to find the real one. The clones each have their own will; some will hang back, some will attack. The only thing sensing the intentions will do is tell goku what each of the 1000 clones are thinking (if that's something goku actually does regularly in fights -- I don't care to fight you on that bc it doesn't matter). If goku can process all that then good for him. Doesn't really help him fight 1000+ Naruto with stats all equal to his own.

@vermillion0831: I wouldn't say Raikage is much much faster than Naruto, Naruto could keep up with his son, during the fight he was't getting blitzed or anything, Raikage was just dodging Rasenshurikens. He precogged Sasuke but still got hit, further advancing my point that precog can't match the gap between fighting skill.

When Naruto was fighting Toneri his clones were still getting fodderized, they always get one shotted during battle. Goku has AOE telekinesis and Ki attacks to pop the clones in large groups and can use his ability to sense the slightest change in the atmosphere and vastly superior martial arts skill to pop any clones in h2h combat. They may be just as fast and strong but Goku can utilize his stats better, period. Goku fought an entire army as a kid and has been in very long winded fights before the stamina argument isn't going to go well here.

Even if he can't find the real one Naruto isn't popping out 1000+ clones for life, who says Goku just doesn't pop a huge radius attack once he realizes all these clones are here? Is Naruto gonna use a bunch of Chakra to make 1000 more? No, he's going to try and fight 1v1 which he'll get decimated in.

@precrisisbardock: first raikage is much much faster. Naruto is faster in KCM, but in sage mode, only his reactions are faster. So at the time, that raikage had superior movement speed and Naruto reacted just fine. As for sasuke, the thing about precog is sasuke has it too via sharingan. Precog vs precog cancel each other out and it really is more about skill between the two. Goku doesn't have that advantage. So I say that scene you posted doesn't really help goku.

Not saying the clones won't go down with a single hit; they will because of shitty durability. I say you oversimplify because you make it sound like the clones will just sit there helplessly while goku just mows them all down which they won't. If goku's attacking some clones the others are moving in to attack. What's this you say about telekinesis? Is that something from super? I don't keep up with that and I don't recall any tk in dbz. Also I wasn't making a stamina argument, I was saying damage from attacks will add up. Tbh, Naruto probably only has to land one rasenshuriken to kill since it's a cellular level attack. Honestly the versatility of the clones gives Naruto an overwhelming advantage. They can coordinate attacks any number of ways. Goku is not blowing them all away at once, and while he may destroy a few, the rest are moving in to attack or hanging back to fight from a distance.

Again I ask you what really puts goku's h2h so far above Naruto? Like I said before, skill went out the window when dbz started; really became more about power levels. And generally, when two fighters are equal in stats, the edge goes to the guy with precog. That's just how these things go. Even IF goku h2h is superior, it's really not a material difference. A precog edge balances it out.

Goku's precog is just as good as Naruto's. You said you haven't been keeping up with super so you most don't know about Goku vs Hit. Hit was skipping through 0.1 seconds at a time and Goku was able to correctly predict every one of Hit's attacks. Hit then increased his ability to skip 0.2 seconds and then Goku only needed to observe like two hits from Hit before he is able to correctly predict again.

Those clones are just pointless fodder too. All it takes is one casual AoE attack and they are done. They won't be able to tank it.

@johncena69swag: indeed I am unfamiliar with the fight you mentioned. From what you described, sounds more like battle intuition or guessing as opposed to actual precog maybe I'll check it out when I get some free time.

As for the clones, I don't doubt their shitty durability but there are a lot of them. If they all gather up close then a simple aoe would be enough. But they don't have to fight like that. Some can go in close, some keep distance. Either way, whatever tactics used, they're all as fast as goku here. It's not like some of them can't get in some good attacks or hit goku with a rasenshuriken before goku does an aoe or something. Or why can't some of them dodge goku's aoe? Again, they're just as fast as goku here. They have options. It's not like goku's ki blasts never miss in the series or anything.